Embark on a theological odyssey as we invite Josh Scott from Over Opinionated into our sanctuary of discourse, dissecting the nuanced doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism. We promise to shed light on the intricate dance between divine predestination and human free will, navigating through the rich tapestry of Protestant tradition. As we unravel the threads of unconditional election and limited atonement, ponder the complexities of salvation, and explore the role of discipleship in the Christian walk, we offer an enlightening perspective on these age-old contentions.
In the company of Josh, we courageously confront the enigmatic nature of God's emotions and the heart of the gospel itself. Our conversation traverses the spiritual landscape, from the irresistible grace extended to Jesus' disciples to the sobering reality of apostasy. We dissect biblical narratives, challenge the authenticity of professed beliefs, and examine the slow, transformative journey of sanctification. Along this path, we probe the tension between grace and works, the spiritual battles shaking the foundations of society, and the call for unity amid the diversity of Christian thought.
As bearers of truth in an ever-evolving world, we address the mission field that lies just beyond our church steps, discussing the potency of personal evangelism and the stark reality of street ministry. With the backdrop of a culture that seems to drift further from Christian values, we reinforce the power of living as a testament to the gospel. This episode is a clarion call for believers to navigate the spiritual warfare we face, standing firm in faith as we seek to understand the divine while engaging with the world around us. Join us for this stirring exploration that promises to invigorate and challenge your own faith journey.
Embark on a theological odyssey as we invite Josh Scott from Over Opinionated into our sanctuary of discourse, dissecting the nuanced doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism. We promise to shed light on the intricate dance between divine predestination and human free will, navigating through the rich tapestry of Protestant tradition. As we unravel the threads of unconditional election and limited atonement, ponder the complexities of salvation, and explore the role of discipleship in the Christian walk, we offer an enlightening perspective on these age-old contentions.
In the company of Josh, we courageously confront the enigmatic nature of God's emotions and the heart of the gospel itself. Our conversation traverses the spiritual landscape, from the irresistible grace extended to Jesus' disciples to the sobering reality of apostasy. We dissect biblical narratives, challenge the authenticity of professed beliefs, and examine the slow, transformative journey of sanctification. Along this path, we probe the tension between grace and works, the spiritual battles shaking the foundations of society, and the call for unity amid the diversity of Christian thought.
As bearers of truth in an ever-evolving world, we address the mission field that lies just beyond our church steps, discussing the potency of personal evangelism and the stark reality of street ministry. With the backdrop of a culture that seems to drift further from Christian values, we reinforce the power of living as a testament to the gospel. This episode is a clarion call for believers to navigate the spiritual warfare we face, standing firm in faith as we seek to understand the divine while engaging with the world around us. Join us for this stirring exploration that promises to invigorate and challenge your own faith journey.
Alright cool, hey guys. So I don't know if you had watched the video and I posted online, but last week me and Josh Scott from over opinionated the host had a great like two hour and 35 minute conversation and it did not take. He did a original video On on his show over opinionated, about Calvinism and Arminianism. I did one on my show responding to him, and then we thought it'd be great, since we both know each other and are to mean people, to actually be able to have a, have a discussion about Calvinism and Arminianism and hyper Calvinism and Pelagianism and everything just from our our standpoint. So we're gonna try our best To recreate what we did last time and this time we are fully backed up. So we're gonna go to the host of over opinionated. Josh got to get his first take of what what I said, my my response to his show about Calvinism and Arminianism.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so there was wrong and I'm right. No, we had a real good conversation Up back and forth. I mean I hate it that we lost it, but you know we're we're up and going again and We'll just, you know we'll do a little show. Now we're up on tick tock. Well, uh, tick tock live. If, if any of my followers is on tick tock, if Darrell releases this show, you know you can go follow me. I'm just dead over opinionated now with the Podcast logo is the profile picture, so Sounds great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't have the cool looking shirt like there was. I got a half Okay.
Speaker 1:I don't know how good they can see the shirt, this shirt, but the hat definitely is cool.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks. Well, I'll have to get you a hat. You have to get me a shirt. I definitely want to make more work. Did that will make that deal it's just a good color scheme the blue, the yellow and blue.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you there the credit. I can't take the credit for that. The company, the Virginia based company that I don't know, if I can say their name, I think you can so it's called Wild Bills if you're a local in Virginia and they make, made this shirt and they also make all the material for massive supplements and violent hippie as well. So Very good company. So I remember the last time when we were having our conversation.
Speaker 1:You had someone's had questions and our discussions, our observations that you have made, and so I somewhat wanted to start off With that. So I know you made some really good points. I wanted you to be able to have your your chance to still make that.
Speaker 2:I had them written down. I think I remember the just that we talked about. I had the whole acronym laid out, so now I don't, but it's total of the private eon Conditional election limited to me and your visible grace.
Speaker 1:Okay, here's this double grace and preserve it to the same seat.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, yeah, I'm not great with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah unless I can just see them. But so my, my whole show I did was unlimited atonement, and why I thought that was the most problematical point. And Calvinism, or reform of theology. I normally say Calvinism. I think some people like it and some people don't. I don't know. I don't know why you wouldn't like it, but but, no, um, but the reform term is strange and it's not strange, but it's like I feel like all Protestants would actually be reformed. If we're gonna get real technical, but I mean that's, it's okay, if that's the label that they want, it's not understand, like I mean, I would consider myself reformed and Because I'm proud of some.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that some, some Protestants, wouldn't somewhat accept it, because a lot of the reformers are people, are reform People in the reform tradition are because they follow doctrinal statements from the reformers. And then there are a lot of people who are Protestants that don't necessarily Follow church history. They put scripture over church history and they don't necessarily have like that, like foundational well, martin Luther said this and William Tindall said this, and you know, and and so they're, they're more, and that's why I think, like some people accept that term and some other people, you know, don't, don't accept it. I think that saying Reformers is is good because it describes, at least you start to pop in your head a certain foundational Tradition and and so I like the term. But I, like, I do like the term capitalism only because I Think it, it brings up the central point of what we're discussing.
Speaker 1:You know, like, so to say like I believe in the reform tradition is like okay, so what are you? Are you a Lutheran? Are you? You know, yeah, are you Wesleyan? Yeah, and so it's just like, well, I am a reform in the reform tradition Under Calvinism. Because even when you say like your reform Baptist, it's like you're playing games, because if you read John Calvin, he wouldn't have given you that option, he wouldn't have allowed to, you know, be a Baptist. So but and so it just kind of means that I think terms Change over times and so when people Say Calvinists, they know what you're talking about, as you are talking about the five points. You're not even actually talking about the entire Selegical approach of John Calvin or John Calvin's commentaries. You know about all of scripture.
Speaker 2:You're kind of talking about the five points and so which I mean I actually have a pretty big respect for John Calvin as a person and the expert, and Martin Luther.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you, when you say that the, the atonement, is the part of the five points as they're defined, that kind of you have the hardest time with what? What is that why?
Speaker 2:oh well, unconditional election, limited atonement limit on what will be the hardest, just because you know we went over the verses before. You know when a reform person or a Calvinist person would say, their interpretation of something like John 316 would be God did love the world and God sent his son to die for the world. But the whole the world doesn't mean every person in the world. It means Several people throughout the world that God has elected. I Would take that to say it's everyone.
Speaker 2:After crisis death, that opportunity was given to you and you know I just Irresistible grace is one that's what we started out the last show talking about. I, you know I Understand why it could feel like his grace is irresistible. He loves you, he's brought you into the Salvation, he's gave you the Holy Spirit to regenerize your heart. But Things that we often call irresistible we can't say no to. Just like a really good T bone steak I mean that was Well, I could, I ate the salad, right, I could have resisted even if it was hard to. Or just, you know you brought up your wife or innocent, and if can ever. But like I'm not comparing God to those things, I'm just saying I think that we God doesn't make us accept him. But and it's not, I know that's not what you're saying but God doesn't make us accept him. But his grace does feel Irresistible. I'm fine with that, but I don't think that we, I don't think that if God is showing us his Grace doesn't mean we can't say no to it.
Speaker 1:Well, and I used in so that episode. I used the wife analogy because I was Tried to stick to the same verbiage the Bible uses when it's Christ loves us like he loves the church. You know, I mean and. And so when he says, you know, love your wives like Christ loves the church. That's kind of why I stuck to the wife Verbiage, and, and I did that very, I Would I say, purposely, also knowing that you know people cheat on their spouses and beat them and and and and everything else, but, but what? I? But?
Speaker 1:I thought that that was perfect Only because it in the, in the biblical sense of the word, all those things may happen, but you are still connected. You know it takes a lot to separate you from, you know from that person. And I was trying to play with the analogy of the. The God is the spouse. It's not gonna let you get the divorce, yeah, yeah, you may may not want it, but he's absolutely uninterested in it and he's gonna be that chain around you that you will start to Gladly carry. It is is kind of the way I thought about it. And I thought about it only because Just because you're connected to the spouse doesn't mean that it's always easy.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. But it, but it, but it's something that that's there, the love is there, and when it gets into the, the, the text of the matter, I think about always the cause of who initiated what. In every story, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, who initiated what? And so there is the response, and I don't, I don't, deny the response, my, my biggest thing that makes me accepted is the initiation. And then there's the, there's the question of if there was not an initiation, would you have anything to respond to? You know, and, and so I I land on the side of a no, and so my, my thing just kind of logically follows If this is true, then this is true. If this is true, then this is true.
Speaker 1:So if I were to say, um, the very beginning is total depravity, and it says that we're totally depraved, and you know so and so forth, it leads me to say, well, what can a totally depraved person do to save themselves? And I would say, well, nothing. It takes an outside source to do that. What's the outside source? So the, the, the other outside source can either be other people, or it can be the spirit. Now, every Arminian that I've ever met.
Speaker 1:Um talks about the spirit. You know they do things to the spirit, and so I say well, you're, you're absolutely correct. I think the question that we wrestle on is how much the spirit does and how much we do to respond to it. And and so I just postulate that. Well, when I say the spirit is irresistible, I mean when the spirit intervenes it's irresistible, because this is probably the other crawl that we, we, we both choke on, is the spirit doesn't intervene for everyone. You know the spirit intervenes for who it decides to intervene and the people that it intervenes to. Um will respond, and I think um and I know the, the limited atonement part of it Is, to a lot of people, the hardest part because of, you know, the notion of fairness and everything like that. And I just think that From from the best way that that we can fathom it, or I could fathom it from my own human Trying to wrap my head about it is it makes the most Logical sense.
Speaker 1:I think I said in one of the episodes, or the episode that I think everybody believes in limited atonement.
Speaker 1:They just don't think about it in the way that I think about it and I and I said something like if um, for god's so love, the world of game has only begun, so the who should have believes that him shall not perish, whatever elastic life.
Speaker 1:I said, if there's somebody in hell, then the atonement is limited because the people who are in hell, their sins were covered, and if, if they're in hell, then the atoning work was not for them, because if the atoning work was for them, then the sin of unbelief would have already been atoned for, they would be in heaven. You know, hell would be unpopulated, and so, and and the only other option, or the only other option that I postulate it is If the atoning work covers everyone, then then hell is kind of A place that's just set for demons, you know, and lucifer, um, yeah, I don't, um, when I see Jesus dying for the world and the sins of the world, I, I don't think he only died for dying for the world, he only died for those who will be saved, and I think that's the um issue.
Speaker 2:Is, you know when it is? You know, like my podcast was into, jesus died for. So, um, as far as why, um, would their sin of unbelief be forgiven? Um, well, I see, is it more as a rejection of what christ did for them? He did pay for their sins, but he rejected me, and if they reject the free gift of god, then God has nowhere to put his wrath but onto the sinner. So I don't see, um, I don't think that that's, if you want to say, that's limited atonement maybe, because, um, we'd be talking about kind of two different things, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, what I mean is the that's. That's kind of where the universal struggle kind of Agrees. Because I can, I could say that, well, god so loved the world. Like I say, oh yeah, god loves the world, he loves the saint in the center, but that doesn't mean that he does everything for everybody the same.
Speaker 1:You know, uh, god may love everybody the same. That doesn't mean he gives everybody the gift of marriage. He loves everybody the same. That doesn't mean he gives everybody children. He loves everybody the same. He doesn't give everybody long life. He loves everybody the same. He gives everybody different spiritual gifts, you know. So, just because god loves you the same does not mean you get the same gift that he gives everybody else. And the, the, the question of why, and it's like well, god is the giver of the gift, um, god is the one that gets to determine who gets what, especially if you deal with the fact that in his, the way that god sees everything, all things work for the good, you know, for his glory and for his purpose, you know. And so I could say, well, god Loves you.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean you're not going to get a spanking, that that you know, I understand what you're saying, but I think there's a difference in I do think salvation is a gift, but there's a difference when it comes to extra blessings for sure, um, or this spiritual gift, or for that spiritual gift. Or you're going to be A head pastor, you're going to be a layman, or you're going to be a deacon or an evangelist or whatnot. Um, and I do understand what you're saying, um, but um, well, when I see the gospel last, if we go to total of the private one second, we go to total of the private I. I almost agree, if you completely on it. Um, the only caveat between the normanians the total, the private in a, a uh, calvinist would be we think the Holy Spirit regenerates your heart before you're saved and you choose to accept or deny.
Speaker 2:Um, so, and I think that opportunity is Is, I think God opens up the hearts of men with the Holy Spirit, even if it's small, and I don't think everyone gets the same opportunity in salvation. But if you hear that gospel message, I think he's giving you the opportunity to turn away or accept him. And um, like if you've heard Jesus Christ crucified, buried and raised from the dead, the Romans rose and given us a sins. I really think you have the opportunity in salvation now. You might turn away and never get that opportunity again, versus someone that might get it multiple times. I don't have the answers for that. I really don't. Um, but um, I see that is more of God's invitation, that is God's love. Was these giving you the option to to either choose or deny him, to either choose or deny him?
Speaker 1:see, I think, uh, um, god's invitation comes in in ways of the, the general call, but also the effectual call. So I would say the general call would be you, you, you. You see a mountain and you can postulate how it got there. That's the general call, the. The effectual call is somebody telling you who created the mountain and then the spirit saying now, bow down. You know now what I also mean by by the effectual call is the. Did you say that he regenerates the heart? I say I agree. And so I would go back to the point of like the initiator.
Speaker 1:So once your heart has kind of been plucked, it's it's not just that you, you can choose, you also have knowledge that you didn't actually have before. And that's where I say like the, the choice becomes irresistible because you, you know, the knowledge becomes, you know, kind of all-consuming. You know what I mean, and and I think that's the the thing that we, we, we wrestle with, because a lot of times it's you know that when you get the effectual call, you still wrestle with sin, and I think that's the thing that the Hanks people have sometimes. They know that they still have sin and so they think, well, does that mean I wasn't called. You know if I'm choosing this, you know, does that mean you know I'm not one of the elect? And it's like no, that's actually not how that works. You know, the, the, the second, you recognize sin and you recognize you don't want to do it.
Speaker 1:I would say You're probably on the path To, to where you, or somebody that god is, is starting to wrestling inside of your heart. Now there, then you, you get into the work of Sanctification. You know, work out your salvation with fear and tripling. You know what I mean. But you're working on the outside. Uh, god is working on the inside, but but god is the one doing the work. You know, it says the one who started the perfect working. You will end it on the day of salvation, and you know.
Speaker 1:And so it's like, well, god is the one that started the work and he's the one that's going to make sure it's complete. And so, and that's kind of where I, where I get to the, I know what it feels like, I know what it looks like, especially when you have people who are Sold out and they just heard something about god and they seem like they're so on fire, and then they walk away and you're, you're like. Well, I, I thought I saw genuine fruit. You know what happened. And then I would just say, well, you know, matthew kind of talks about that they were among us and they left from us, but they left from us to manifest that they were never actually among us, you know, and it's like well, I don't necessarily know, you know what that looks like or how that you know what that means, but I just know.
Speaker 1:That's kind of what it says. You know what I mean. And it's even talks comes in my mind when I think about Historical figures who did worldly good things, but I can't actually say if they were saved or not. You know, I would definitely be in the not category, but when they, when they were doing good things, they were definitely. It looked like they were among us, you know, and so and I think the limited atonement and irresistible grace will always be kind of the the hardest points to um Get each other pinned down on, you know.
Speaker 1:But I know the I knew that the apparent paradox is there, you know. I mean, I think that last time I brought up the point of you know, when you know, jonah was told to go to Nineveh to preach God's word and I said, oh yeah, you know, obviously Jonah rejected, but but when you see the events of the story, god was like, no, I, that really wasn't an option. I told you to go and you're gonna get, you're gonna get there, you know. And in the end, you know he goes to Nineveh. So I could see the Armenian position in that point. But I also see, you know and this is before you know Jesus dies and brings the help, or God is saying no.
Speaker 1:I said you're gonna go there and you can try to flee all you like, but it's not. That's not how it's gonna work out for you. You know, yeah, and then there's other people. I think we could see that, um, god will tell them to do something. They, they won't. They won't do it and they'll die instantly. And then you say, like, well, what is that? You say, well, what you just saw is God's choosing. You know, I'm gonna give you 50 million options and I'm not gonna give them any, or I'll give them two, you know. So you can say, well, he chose. You say yeah, but who made the ultimate choice of when you're choosing ends?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know for sure. I, when I think back. There's a couple stories. You know, we have Joshua in the Old Testament at the very end of the book. You know he said you know this is the God that brought you out of Egypt. You know, worship him. Or he said you know, choose for you to stay, worship this God or worship. You know, go back to Egypt and worship the Egyptian gods. And I, when I read that, I don't, I don't know how to say it's not a true choice. Right, I don't think it's just wordplay. I think this is now. Obviously you don't want to pit God, the true God, but I see this as a true statement and a true choice, with Joshua saying you can go back or you can worship the true God yeah, yeah, I don't mean.
Speaker 1:I think I think I said this kind of before. I think a lot of times, when it comes to Calvinist and Arminians, we kind of do a little wordplay when it comes to the Bible. So Calvinists will see the words like all and they'll say, well, I don't know if it really means all and. And then Arminians will see words like hate or elected and predestined.
Speaker 1:They'll say I don't know if that that's not. You know, and I kind of say like I just somewhat let it stand where it stands, but I also try to read it in totality that there's always two things going on or multiple things going on, and sometimes I are. Some people say all the time God is doing work that we do not see, you know, and so and so, and that's kind of somewhat where I rest. I know that even Jesus said I oftentimes would shoot a gather, you like a, you know, mother-in-gatherer, but you won't come. You know, and I read that, I say, well, I'm not gonna try to explain it away, it says exactly what it says. And and I would just say that that's because that's the genuine call. You know, it's not as God's desire that every man should perish, but they all come to the knowledge of God.
Speaker 1:You know, well, I read that and I say, well, this is exactly what I'm saying. But and then the other part of me says but we know that men are perishing and we know that God gets all his desires. You know, because God says I will have all my good pleasures. You know, he says all of them. So it's like so what does he mean by that. And so when I, when I approach, what I see is like apparent paradoxes, so there's not really much I can do with it, except except both statements to be true. You know when, when you know you hear something like God has no regrets or God doesn't make mistakes, but then you read that and God was, you know, sad and grieved that he had made man, you're like, oh what, what does that mean, you know, and so yeah, I don't think it was a mistake, god made man, but I genuinely think that he looked at them and he's, he's emotional, being just like we are, and say, man, they are truly wicked.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a difference in the head knowledge, in the heart knowledge, and God knew the head knowledge, they would fall. Yeah, he was just getting that heart knowledge, man. They were truly wicked yeah, and so I.
Speaker 1:It's not as if I don't know I wrestle, I would say, with those same, you know, armenian verses, that I, that I see, but then I also think about, I would say, the practical applications of people's lives.
Speaker 1:I see, in the Bible, you know, I see, when you just is picking the 12 disciples, they're not looking for him, he's looking for them, you know. And when it comes to the irresistible grace, there's not anywhere in the canon where it says well, he went up to 15 people and you know they didn't like him. So then he went to another village and he found those 12. You know, it was the people he went up to, they all accepted, you know, and so we somewhat play around with well, could they not have accepted? But it's like, but we know they accepted and we know he and we know, according to the way it all goes to the end was we know how the story ends he kept them all, except for the ones he said he had to let pairs show that the scriptures should be fulfilled. The son of perdition, you know, and so, and then I remember the part where they're talking to the mugs themselves about who will be greatest in the kingdom, you know.
Speaker 2:And he admonishes them and says you didn't choose me, I chose you, you know yeah, well, when it comes to the 12, I agree they did and Jesus did choose them and they, they won't proof Christ. You know they followed him. I didn't have. When you brought that up, it took me back to John 6. I remember this verse very well because, you know, I heard a sermon one time and it's the verse is actually John 666 and that is just an easy way for me to remember. And this is after Jesus fed some of the 5000 this is John's telling of it and he said unless you eat my question my blood won't get into heaven yet right.
Speaker 2:And then a lot of people were offended by that because they fall to be meant physical body, eat him, drink him and and so. But it says in John 666 from this time any of his disciples turned back in, no longer fall you know, overfall yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, were they? I can't answer if they were saved or not. This is the NIV. I mean I don't see the cycle. It's not the 12, the side is, but he it. It does look like that Jesus had some followers. Not they might not have been the closest of followers of 12 the disciples or the apostles but it does look like he had followers that walked away and they said what I would just say about that particular verse.
Speaker 1:When it comes to the 5000 and and I'm not gonna, and what I would say is, and this is just kind of just a summary of that and this, when you look at that verse, especially if a star said verse one, how it says in the beginning 5000 fed. And I think that there was a time where there was, when Jesus was doing a lot of miracles, even in like impertum and stuff like that, you had people who followed him because he had all the signs and wonders, you know, and when he started to make statements about things, I was like they were followers, but they were following, but they were not followers, you know. They were following because they were getting free food. They were, you know, they were getting all the, all the goodies. And then when he started to actually lay down the actual gospel, you know, that's what, that's what they departed, and so it's it's like, like, like any, any charismatic leader, you know, can, can keep you around if he's giving you stuff, but if he demands something of you, that's when the rubber actually meets the road.
Speaker 1:And so the debate is could he have kept them if he wanted to, you know. And the thing is, if you deal with the same God who in those texts, or Jesus when he's you know, god, man, where he says well, he read their hearts, so he knew that they wanted to do this. He knew that you know. You say well, why would Jesus make those statements if he didn't know? You know what they wanted, you know, and it's just like he's the same one that when they kept asking for signs, kept saying you, wicked and foolish generation, you never, you will never get a side. Well, technically, that can't be true. He's already given them sides. You know, he gave them all of them. But what it was showing to me, I read those first and I says and it shows, and it didn't matter what type of side he gave them, you know he, he could he could have started levitating in the air.
Speaker 1:They just would have asked for something else. He raised dead people, he healed demons, he did everything. And they said, well, you only do that, and because you do it by the power of you know, you know demons, and so that's kind of where I look at that and I say, yeah, those people did walk away. And then I would say I would make the connection and say they walked away from among them because they weren't actually among them and it was there to manifest that they weren't there.
Speaker 1:And I would go to Matthew, or you know when, when Jesus is doing his high priestly prayer, and when he says you gave them to me and I kept them, and none of them have left, you know. And so I look at that statement in the same way if they had been given, they would have been kept it, none of them would have left, and, and so but but I also this is crazy to say, but this from a like a pastoral standpoint it, it, it means to me that if, if people can, I don't see how people could think that people are getting saved because they're clever, you know, because they, they can preach a great message when, when Jesus himself have 5,000 people leave when he says some hard sayings. And so if you look at the Bible as a continuation type of document, when when it says in the end in, people will prick up teachers who tickle their ears and tells them, tell them what they want to hear, all right, they won't say eat my body and drink my blood, are you?
Speaker 1:you're not gonna get in the heaven, you know they're gonna say well, just say a little prayer, walked on the island, that's it. They're not gonna talk about sanctification or things you can't do or buff it.
Speaker 1:Your body, you know, jesus was, I would say, trying to tell them this is not easy, you know and we talked about this or the last show we talked about, when he's telling those that other group of people if you want to follow me, you have to hate your mother and and brother and sister and brother-in-law, and your enemies will be of your whole household. You know, and so well, that's the same. You know one that says I stand at the door and knock, you know what I mean. Or why won't you come? Why must you perish, why must you die? And so that's why I always say that this is the same person who's saying those things. But that doesn't mean that, at the same time, if you come and he thinks you're coming superficially, he's got to accept you, you know yeah, um yeah.
Speaker 2:I believe in false converts. For sure people that, yeah, I've called, I call it fire insurance. I don't really care about the things of God that much. But I'm gonna say I believe in him and then I might say a prayer. So I'm gonna die.
Speaker 1:I don't go to hell and think about that, when Paul was doing the work and there was a sorcerer in the Bible who saw the works of the spirit and tried to follow, just so he could figure out how to, you know, get that power.
Speaker 2:So yeah, do you think? Do you think that someone can apostize that he believes that there are true apostates? I want trying to interrupt you.
Speaker 1:You can finish your phone yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think I think there can be only because I've. You know the book. The verses says no man puts his hand to the plow and turns away. You know? I think Dan explains.
Speaker 1:You know, apostates, when I was in high school there was a guy that was like a really big, famous Christian who wrote the book. I gave up on dating, I kiss dating goodbye, you know, and after it was something Harris, the guy's name was in in it was a book and I was reading it and the whole thing about book that book was it was about about dating Jesus and you know all this stuff. And that guy now has a movement called the divergent movement or the D investment or something like that movement were defective or something and now they're not. A lot of those people are Christians anymore. You know our, you know they're atheists or whatever, and so I kind of you know this. That book, you know, kind of really affected me when I was growing up and so I see stuff like that and you just say, you know, I don't know, I don't know if in 10 years that guy's gonna, you know, say I was wrong. You know, I.
Speaker 1:I was right the first time you tap around. You know, but what I will? I will say this there are some people and who know God, know Jesus or no God as he manifests himself through Jesus in a very intellectual way, you know, and, and they know, they can read the Bible, they can read the Talmud, they can read, you know, hebrew, greek, and they don't believe God deep in their heart, they intellectualize it, you know it as some sort, some sort of factoids, but they so they accept Jesus as like God but don't accept Jesus as Savior, if that makes any sense. And I think that there's a lot of people who kind of do that, you know. And then when the rubber actually meets the road, that there you see, their faith is built on Jell-O pudding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with that I mean yeah, I've seen that. I mean I don't think you have to work to keep your salvation. I came from more of a holiness background that really does think that I don't believe that at all. I don't think you can lose your salvation and I don't like the time, but I do think you can walk away. And there is a difference, a hundred percent. There's a difference because if I can lose it, that means I did something to get it outside of just his grace. But I definitely think that you belong away.
Speaker 1:See, and this is this is kind of what I think someone happens is we as humans will see sinfulness and think that person has walked away from the faith, you know, and what I see is sinfulness and I think that person is in sin. You know that that and that in of itself does not mean they are not saved. It just means at that moment they are subjecting themselves to sin. You know, and that's kind of, and I think a lot of times we, we look at things like that because we think like, well, the Bible says no tree will bear no good tree will bear bad fruit, and I and I'm just like, okay, the Bible does say that.
Speaker 1:It says that 100% true. It also says there's no one that does good. Yeah, so it's like alright, so what do you do with that? You, you, you, you, you could you look at it just like you look at life the more closer you become to God, the more aware you're gonna become of your sin. That does not mean you are not going to sin, but it also means that people who hold you accountable will see your sins and be mortified by it yeah, I believe in sanctification, a very gradual sanctification that will not happen to, or heaven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it happens on this side of heaven and I think it's a long-drawn out process and I think as human beings we turn and we follow our sinful natures and slide back sometimes. I don't think that means you're lost your salvation. Yeah, I don't think if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing, that you're automatically not a left anymore, but I do think that you can. I think that you could be saved and just one day, hard in your heart so much you turn away and you know this gets into one. Say don't always say the baby, I don't like that, you know. I say it's, I say it's 75% right, only thing. And people honestly, I've had people both camps. It's like hit one side of the fence or I'm gonna call.
Speaker 1:Wait a minute. Let me get James white on the phone right now.
Speaker 2:I don't think it has to be. We're gonna have to have because I think Armenian ism Calvinism. It's a human reaction. It's a human look at the Bible to explain it. Calvinism itself is not the gospel. Armenian ism itself is not the gospel. It's an explanation of the gospel that we're trying to understand. Right, they both have the gospel in them. You can be Armenian and be saved and Calvinist to be safe. But we're trying to explain the gospel through our human lenses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I do, I do believe that and then. But I also just say we're trying to explain it as we approach it, as fallen humans, sure, and and so even even if I Explain an ideological concept, it's not biblical. I cannot Always independently take my myself out of it.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean and and.
Speaker 1:So I think a lot of times when we approach, approach Biblical texts, we sometimes approach them just like that. You know, I don't like this doctrine Because the first time it was introduced to me it was introduced by Somebody who says something snark while my you know family members on their deathbed. You know what I mean. And and and and in that Some somewhat, I think we get into those debates. I actually had never heard of Calvinism as defined by anybody that taught Calvinism To me. I think they have been somewhat specifically trained to never say those, say those buzzwords. It was just. It was just someone who they taught verse by verse, preaching, which was a doctor, steve Herford in Jacksonville, florida, and I just kind of came upon the.
Speaker 1:The debates hit by mistake and what I will say is what? Why it made sense to me Was because the foundational verse, which was the you know the Bible verse that I first was able to put in memory which is funny because it wasn't John 3, 16. It was the grace through faith. It's by grace through faith. We've been saying that out of yourself is the gift of God. Let's say the measure boast, and that was the first Bible verse I knew. And then I would just think about Well, what is that specific sentence saying? It's by grace. Whose grace was? Not mine, not me, it's not because I'm so gracious and so smart, I just saved myself. So it was by God's grace. And who has been saved by that? Well, me. And why couldn't I do it on myself? Because if I could do it by myself, then I would boast and God's not interested in my pride. So, and then I thought about it from a practical standpoint If I died tomorrow and we both died and I, we, we saw each other in heaven and we were all happy. The second, I looked at you and thought, man, josh is such a great guy, he made it to heaven. I've stolen God's glory from him, you know, by by adding you in it, you know. And if you looked at me and thought the same thing, we stolen God's glory by adding me in it. When it's just like what actually happened is Jesus loved Josh and he died for him and that's why he's here, and, and, and. So it was just Me being afraid, as as much as I know that Satan's fall was because of pride, to, to put myself in that equation. And so my biggest thought was if there's anything I can do with my salvation, it's muck it all up. And so when, when you get to the, the conversation about what saved always saved us, as people Used to say when I was growing up, one saved always saved us. A Lisa Sam Florida, you know, I would say the.
Speaker 1:The problem is is if I could lose my salvation, I lose it 50 million times a day. Yeah, I'd give it up over a snicker bar, but it's and it's only because I Think without the regenerated heart, it doesn't seem valuable to you. You know what? In your day-to-day life, what seems valuable in, at least in most contexts, is Survival resources, money. You know heat, you know revenge. You know that person just offended me. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you this right now.
Speaker 1:I remember when I was growing up it was very the same people used to say all the time was that that woman or that man? I always made me lay my salvation to the side for a moment and you'd be thinking like, yeah, you know, I kind of grew up with the whole notion of you can lose your salvation, and when you curse somebody out and then you just pick it back up and now you're saved again, and then I Don't. I don't know if that is because we are derivatives of, like you know, we came from the Roman Catholic tradition and you know they have penance and that's kind of our way of Admitting in our heart that. Okay, I know that what I just did was wrong, you know.
Speaker 2:But when I talk about walking away from the faith, it's not I Miss open sin, it's I just don't want anything to do with God anymore. I totally Don't care, I walk away. Um, but yeah, I, I don't. The whole holiness notion of, once you're saved, you can't, you can't be.
Speaker 1:Unsaved. Yeah, yeah, once you're.
Speaker 2:Once. I'm sorry, give me one second. It's not the phones being weird. I know once once you only this notion that, once you have Been saved, that if you sin, that your salvation is gone or you backslidden where God can no longer forgive you, and and that that's when we start making rankings, that's when we start saying well, this sin is not as bad as that sin, well, this, and you know, if you do this and that's not as bad as that, and you know God won't kick you out for this.
Speaker 2:But you know, and that's when that's when some self-righteousness righteousness comes up, as if you believe that you're totally sanctified, that you were a foul sin, you start justifying your sins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I definitely understand that. I know this sounds crazy to say In this way, but the press, upalities and things like that, that fell. I Would say, without attacking people's religion, dad, there there are actually two religions that the religion of God did it and a religion of human achievement, and I think a lot of religious traditions Flurk with the human achievement. Yeah, you know thing, and if you really look at Religions outside of traditional Christianity, whether it's, you know, islam, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Holy Krishna, anything it's you have to do this to be perfected, you have to do this, you have to do that.
Speaker 1:And I think it's very dangerous sometimes because inside of the Christian traditions, I Think that Somewhat rubs off on us too. So we mix the sanctification part with the salvation part, you know it's, and it's like, no, the work's already been done. And because the work has already been done, I actually want to do these things, you know, but I only want to do that because the work's already been done. I always think, like, in the most simplest way, when Jesus died on the cross, you know gasping for air, and he says it's finished, I can say, well, he's saying it's finished because he died. He's also saying the work is finished. Yes, you know.
Speaker 2:When he said it was Spanish. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and that's kind of what what I think is like now that doesn't mean what it meant when the hyper Calvinists Tried to have their cake and eat it too, and probably a lot of them weren't saved when they would say well, you know, be to prove that I'm elect, I'm just gonna sit so much that God can get the glory. No, you know, that was just a bunch of evens who, in those times, there was no real separation between the state and the church, and they were trying to, you know, have their little Orgies and everything and still pretend like they were saved, you know. And so I think that what happens is, when you get the regenerated heart and you get the spirit inside you, you start to detest sin like God detests it, and so that's where the work starts. But what I think happens is on a human level, people do start to do what's good, where they try to hold each other accountable, and then eventually, some people will Use that to say, oh, they didn't do this. You know, I saw him and he was wearing shorts, and they come up with those little artificial list, and you see how dangerous it is because, in all seriousness, that's exactly what the scribes and the Pharisees did that.
Speaker 1:There was the, there was the actual written tradition, and then there was the Talmud tradition, which is just the oral tradition, and Jesus was coming on the scene saying that's actually not legitimate, that's not written anywhere, that's just something that you guys have said and everybody started doing it. But you know that's nowhere in the scriptures and and so that in Judaism is like that day hits like roughly called, like the, the, their tradition of the elders, and they still keep to that. They still obey a lot of things that the elder said in the Talmud, but it's like yeah, but that's. You can't find that anywhere in any text, any scriptures. It's just in the oral tradition that they, you know, started to do.
Speaker 1:And I think we On this side of the cross Make that same mistake. And then I think that causes us to have all sorts of Theological like very bad baggage we carry around when we come out of it, you know, whether it's Methodist or holiness or whatever, but I do think that at the root cause of it, I can say that what a lot of people are starting off are they're trying to do it from a very good place, you know, and what they're trying to do is they're staying at the world and they're saying we definitely don't want you to do that, and so the Bible is the Bible is the Bible. But we're, but we're trying to do is make good little boys, get little boys, and good little girls, get little girls, and Then they, they mesh the two and it's like what I actually need to do is teach you About the gospel, the gospel, the gospel, the gospel, and the. The spirit will do the work.
Speaker 2:Well, they don't want to see him. Because they don't want obviously we shouldn't either but because they don't want to displease God, they believe in going on this. But the problem is, we all sin, we're all we. You know. James says if we say, we're about sin, then we're kidding ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think he just means the Unsafe when he's writing that Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, this is a point we closely. You know, I talked to one of my friends. He's an assembly God minister and I hate talking about this sometimes because it's, you know, the loser, salvation, and sometimes we debate terms and you know, and it's just he's like you come very close to agreeing with me, josh, you, you don't believe. You don't believe the perseverance in the saints that once you're saved you can never walk away. It's like, maybe not fully, but I feel like I closely agree with them, more than you. Then we talk and it sounds like we agreed. And when we talk, it sounds like we agree. We both have small hiccups with.
Speaker 2:I Really think it's trying to put God in the box of the. You know, do you believe in eternal security or not? And I think the majority of it's true. I mean, I grew up in a place where if you said the f word and it looked like you were going to hell. So I'm gonna gravitate to know. I'm gonna gravitate to God's goodness and and a part of me just now, think about my grandpa, who's a phenogostal hole in this minister. You know the Trinitarian or the box. But and I think about him and he's a very good, good man, but not I don't think all the ministers are as good as him, as a part of the person. I'm not saying they're bad, but, um, when you teach your doctor and I don't know how they stump their toe and if they say a curse word, how that works in their mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And my thing is I think that, like I could see, I could see how people can read Versus and pick up on both like my. You know you shouldn't have paper books in the Bible. My favorite book of the Bible is actually the book of James, because my the sin that I struggled with the most were pride, anger, sexual.
Speaker 1:And so when James says in James 4, where do fights and wars come from among you? Do they not come from desires from your flesh, that war your members you lust because you do not have. You fight in coral because you cannot obtain, you do not have because you do not ask. You Ask and you do not receive because you ask Selfishly, because you want to spend it on your selfish pleasures. And then he goes on and says Purify your hands.
Speaker 1:You said, and then I'm just like he's actually telling you to do something. And but then when he gets out he says Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you, you know. And then I'm, and so when I read that I'm like that sounds a lot like work stuff. You know he's telling me to purify my hands. He's telling me to, you know to do that and that that appeals to the Conservative side of me, where I was like why are you having these thoughts? You're having these thoughts because you're prideful and selfish and you need to cut it out.
Speaker 2:You know, no, I did a little bit of college work. I read, I reread James. All the time I felt like God, just get me that book. And it was. It might have been a harsh lesson, but I think it was more out of love and I just, you know, don't be just hearers of the word. Yeah, I'll show you my faith through work and yeah, it's, it's a good, good message, for sure to Again, we can't just be hearers of the word, we gotta be doers of the word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and so when I, when I read stuff like that, I look at it and I say that is a. You could read that and say that is a work based salvation. So much that when I was studying church history actually found out that Martin Luther Originally cut the entire book of James out of the Bible and then he included it and he was like well, I can't reject this, it seems to be in all the canon, and he says there's too many great sayings in him. But he saw in that that was fighting against his Grace through faith. You know.
Speaker 2:I don't think it fights against it.
Speaker 1:Well, I just mean is like at least Exegetical approaches. He probably was a Bexar better exegete of the Bible than I am, and so if he wrestled with it, I think it's quite natural that we wrestle just as much. Oh sure, and the only thing is is that I'm not interested in taking cylinders and cutting out parts of the Bible that don't fit. You know, whatever falls under whatever at the time. So I Would just say that what happens with me most of the time is People I've heard theologians say don't look at the Bible from a historical concept, don't look at history. History has no bearing on the Bible, you know. And then that's fine. But when I read the Bible, I read the people as a historical narrative, and when I when, I'll say, okay, when this person was saved and came to the knowledge of Christ, what happened, you know? And so that's kind of how I look at it, and then I say where they kept, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean the biggest, you know.
Speaker 2:Going back to women at home, it's a very hard hurdle and I can't accept it because I think God you know, like I said early, think God gives the option for salvation to everyone that hears this message. I and, and I understand God gives some spiritual gifts for this is this, but we're talking about an eternity either in suffering or in peace, and it's it's hard for me and God is more than just loving these many attributes, that's hard for me to see a loving God creating someone knowing, well, not knowing, but not giving them the option For salvation at all. Because I know that there's a general call, but if there's no Way for them to actually accept the general calm, and then you have Over people that he makes himself Irresistible to. You have some people that it's he, he, you know he is picking and choosing who will serve, who live in heaven, who will live in hell. You know it kind of goes back to the hypercalvanness. I'm not as big of a thing as hypercalvanness, but I do think it could seem more ideologically pure, right.
Speaker 1:Why, why so?
Speaker 2:Because if God decides who's going to heaven, does he not decide he's going to hell?
Speaker 1:so, oh, and that's, that's the hypercalvanness position. And this is this is what I would say to them that may that may make sense in a human logical brain and what they're trying to do is be morally or, I'm sorry, intellectually consistent. I would ask them where does the text say that God predestines anybody to go to hell? And if they could point, and if they could point to me where it says and then that's why God predestined him to go To hell, then I'd say, well, it looks like it sucks, but I have to kneel to the scriptures. They it doesn't say that. That's something they postulate, you know. And then I would tell them well, I'm just gonna warn you that it says in revelations don't add anything to this book.
Speaker 1:And and and what you've done is Kind of say that, well, god kind of plays this little game where he's like I pick you, I don't pick you, I pick you, I pick you. And I said, what actually happened is, it seemed like Everybody was going to hell and God picked some. And so the thing is you can, you can ask the question which I think Paul wrestles with it in Romans 9. You know, you know, are. I would summarize why doesn't he just pick everyone. And then it's like, well, if that's the case and he's just gonna pick everybody, you actually don't need a Jesus, you know, and it's like the the, that question is not resolved, you know, by saying that he predestined people to hell or he predestined people to heaven. You know, you, you would still have to still wrestle with. You know, everything else it. So I would, I would not, I Would say I'm not amazed Are that people go to hell or whatever. I'm amazed that God Would everything I know about what he thinks about himself and what God thinks about the son and what the son thinks about the spirit and what the spirit thinks about the father, that we somehow got drafted into that love fest.
Speaker 1:You know, because let me tell you one thing I know, I know my sins and and, and so If anybody deserves hell, if I woke up and held tomorrow, I would know I'm not in hell because God didn't pick me to go to heaven. I'm not in hell because God predestined me to go to hell. I'm in hell because these are things that I did, that I knew were incorrect and I kept doing them, and because I kept doing them. This is the just punishment. What? Why am I being punished because I willfully send against the holy God? And this is the judgment you know? And Did I know that it was wrong?
Speaker 1:Yes, were people telling me that it was wrong? Yes, did I still do it? Yes, I cannot look at the judge and say well, wait a minute now, josh did some things that were worse. I remember back. It's like that's not how that works. You chose your behavior. It is the judge's decision of if they're gonna be merciful or not, and so I think that what hyper Calvinists do is pretend like what God did is pick your sins for you and it's like no, he just decided that you were gonna get all of the grace. You got grace that the second you sinned you didn't die and burst into flames right away. You know, you just didn't get, I guess, the ending gift of being able to go sit at Abraham's table, but you didn't deserve that in the first place. So everybody that's there is there, undeserving, yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree, everyone. It's there, it's undeserving. Hey but I guess my question is what kind of an existence is it to just To have no chance it haven't and to just live, die and suffer?
Speaker 1:well, I Would just say this, and I can't I can't fully answer that, but I can answer it like this the the notion of what's fair and what's not fair Is is a very human construct and I would just say this to me there is no fairness anywhere in in the universe that I can observe. And, and then I will also postulate. I'm actually not sure if we want what's fair. What we want is mercy and grace, you know, and love and compassion and patience, and that's what some people get, and and I would say that's what, what a lot of people get.
Speaker 1:And To a human brain is not fair that I get to eat five meals a day and somebody else keeps you can see it one a week, you know, and the same God that that oversees this Life, and you know overseas that well, I was that fair? I don't know, but I know it's happening To for me to try to invent like, well, that's not God, that's not giving them the meal, that's the devil. And you know, I just think that's when we get into playing these little games where it's like we're trying to get God off the hook, and it's like you know why things are bad? Because we fell and and and because of sinfulness.
Speaker 2:I'm not blaming God in any of this, I'm just, I guess I'm wondering what's the point of an existence for someone who's not elect and Calvin.
Speaker 1:Well, I think.
Speaker 2:Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Oh, what did the hyper Calvinists say?
Speaker 2:Calvinists would be to give glory to God. You know you're still giving glory to God. See you're burning in hell.
Speaker 1:My thing is I understand why they say that and I would say this you have to understand that. I Don't think they're completely wrong when they make that answer, but it's one of those things where you have to be very careful, because it says he's not please, he's not as well that any man suffer or any man perish. Do they ever, you, ever man, comes to knowledge of God? Now, here's the now, here's the thing that you really have to rust with and you really have to understand. Do you think people in hell are you have the full knowledge of God when they're burning?
Speaker 2:Why do you name?
Speaker 1:my phone that somebody who's in hell. Do they now know that Jesus is God?
Speaker 2:Yes, there you go.
Speaker 1:So that doesn't mean that that when, when it when, it's them coming to the knowledge of God, is them coming to the knowledge of God because I let them come sit at my table? It could be. Oh, they came to the knowledge because they're getting the spanking right now and they know who I am. And you have to understand that you deal with the fact that God Gets glory in his mercy. It seems like he gets more glory in his mercy. He gets glory in his compassion, he gets glory in his forgiveness, he gets glory in his chastening, he gets glory in his redemption. He gets, and he also gets glory in his judgment. You know, and and it's all those things to God are perfectly in oneness my brain cannot fathom. How can I, how can I, as a parent, get glory because I spanked my child? You know, I'm actually heartbroken over it. Well, guess what? It shows that God has some heartbreak. But as much as God loves you, he loves himself more. You know he. He loves you enough to send you his son, but not enough that he's gonna just sit around and tolerate your foolishness. You know all the time, in perpetuity.
Speaker 1:And so it's like I understand the the the harness of that question, but I would just say you are here because of choices other people made. And what would you do? What? Why you're here? They actually they're concerned about it, but they're actually. That's not why you were made. You were made because they were having a good time in the making.
Speaker 1:You know, for the most part, you know, we know there's other situations, but I look at it like that I'm here and everything I do was because God decided I would be here and and and the way that this vessel gets used, I Really, I really am not the determiner. I cannot define. How does God get glory from this? How does God get glory from somebody being born in quadriplegic? I have no clue, you know what I mean, but I know people are quadriplegic, you know, and so and I would just say that, even when I think about hell and when I think about human fairness, of course it doesn't, you know, but I've always had the struggle with well, yeah, even, even, even even in Muslim hell, it's not permanent, you know.
Speaker 1:And why? In Christian hills is it forever and ever and ever and ever. You know the Muslims, the blood thirsty. You know people, the chop everybody's heads off. Even when you go to hell, there. It's for a few, you know. Then you figure it out and that's it. There is no real Resolution to that, but but I don't want to intellectualize it so much that I become heretic.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so, and I don't All I can say is my answer is I don't know. So what I have to do is preach the gospel to everybody and and hope that they don't go there.
Speaker 1:You know, and and hope that when I die I don't see my loved ones there, and and a bunch of other things. I used to want to be one of those Christians that believed. Oh, you know, there used to be an Apostles Creed that said when Jesus died, he descended in the hell, you know, and oh, and that's because he went there to pull everybody out, you know, and there's nobody in hell. But I can't find that, you know, in the text.
Speaker 2:So I know, I definitely think you went to hell, but Then again everyone else, yeah, what I mean is like what?
Speaker 1:happens is we, we start to. We, we start to work our desires into.
Speaker 2:There's a difference between show and hell, but yeah, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I've met a few hypercalviness before, not not the lovelies.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, you got hypercharism addicts and you have time for a car Calvinist, and they're both and you, both sides have to calm down.
Speaker 1:But I have. I have one question for you. Yeah, so what? What do you think the best Calvinist argument you've ever heard?
Speaker 2:Oh, she, there's few. I Think Romans 9 is pretty good Calvinist argument, although you know, if you want to go back to my breakdown, you can't. I think you can Still be an Armenian and a firm. Romans 9 and Romans 8, I Think that you can. I Think you can make argument through resurrection of Lazarus. I think it's a picture, but I think you can make that argument. I think that's a good one. No, and there's, you know there's verses. Here I'm Pharaoh. Pharaoh is probably a very good one too. Hardening the heart of Pharaoh for sure. Oh, what would be your, your best argument as a Armenian?
Speaker 1:Jesus. So how often I wish to gather you but you won't come. Okay, well, when I hear Jesus say that, I take it to be genuine because I can. I can read the, the pleading. You know I wish I could, but you just won't. Why won't you? You know why won't you come. You know why must you die. You know when he's saying I stand at the door knock.
Speaker 1:You know, when he says come to me all who are heavy and burn lead, and I will give you rest. You know, I read all those verses and it seems like God is pleading, you know, as he manifests himself through Jesus Christ come here, come, come, come, come, come. And then, when I know that people are coming, you know it's like well, it seems like the Armenians have a point there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the good thing about this is we could, totally. We could pay the devil's advocate and argue the possession just as well as each other.
Speaker 1:Well, I cuz, I cuz, I think about it.
Speaker 2:Maybe we should do that.
Speaker 1:I think, I think about it a lot. And then I, because I think that there are certain definite statements like when, when, when Jesus is saying, you know, yeah, I chose you, you know, because you were the weakest, you know, you know basically, and so that my glory can be seen, you know. When it says I chose Israel, you know basically, you know, out of all the tribes, you know, and I think about all that and I say, yeah, well, why didn't each he could have choose the Amalekites or the Mu'abites or the Hittites or the Canaanites? You know, and, and so I always think about it seems as if it kind of you know, goes both ways. And I think about the other point which I think I brought up last time.
Speaker 1:I said an eternity past. You know that there is a falling out in heaven. You know Lucifer is gone in half of the. You know angels that were there and and they were more closer to God than I ever got to be, and so you know that there are celestial beings that are in rebellion, and so it's. It's.
Speaker 1:It makes me wrestle with the. So if, if, if, god can tell them to do things and they can be like oh no, I'm good, and you know they don't. I Could see how it can be in the same vein God tells do things, and we could say you know, no, I'm good. I think the question that pulls me back is but he didn't give them a guarantee to any type of salvation. Oh, they had was obedience, you know. And when God does to us which I don't know why, because most of us probably send more than Lucifer is he gives us the, the grace to save us from himself, from his wrath to come. And I don't. I don't know why, you know, and but all I can just Do is be thankful and try to be submissive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got you now. But one thing is, you know I step. So you talk about plagianism. Yeah, I, I disagree with the idea and I thank you You're not dangerous with it. But I think it could be dangerous that Arminianism. Is it all plagianist or semi-plagianist? Because Arminianism to be true, you have to have the Holy Spirit's operation in your heart. But we believe you have to accept it and I you, whoever's been regenerated accepts or denies Christ. Plagianist, faulted by your own will, without the Holy Spirit that you could chew God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's why I Carefully said semi-plagian.
Speaker 2:Well, so yeah, but I mean, I, I it isn't semi, you know, I don't know, I think that it's.
Speaker 1:But also and I would say that because I know Pelagian denied the doctrine of original sin, and so that's what made him think because he didn't agree with total depravity. He argued, therefore, that you could save yourself because there was nothing there, that, basically, you're all blank slates and everything hinged on the choice to be either good or be evil. And he said people who were evil were evil by choice, but not because of any sinful tendencies or any guilt that they inherited from out, any guilt or sins that they would have inherited from Adam. And I think that was when Augustine said his entire doctrine can be summed up as being graceless. There's no need for grace in that system. And I think that when Jacob Arminian saw total depravity, he kind of played around with that too. And what I just think is, in the Calvinist system, as I understand it, if you don't have outright total depravity, none of the other things make sense. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I agree with that and I don't think total depravity contradicts Arminianism, not in the sense of a regenerative heart. I don't know, the Calvinists have a little bit different of a total depraved view than we do, but it's not much different.
Speaker 1:Because when I was studying Arminian they didn't believe that we were totally depraved, but we had sinful tendencies something like that.
Speaker 2:And so it was Sure. Now I understand that when I look at total depravity, the only caveat I would say is outside of the spirit, right, because outside of the spirit we're not totally depraved. I mean outside of the spirit we are totally depraved. Inside of the spirit we're not. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think the only distinction that made I mean that is a big distinction, but it was also that because of that not totally depraved, but affected by sin they put more emphasis on what we would call now as free will. And, like I was, I think I said it in one I don't know if you were discussing it or when I put it in the response where I said it's very hard for you to go to the Bible and find lots of free will verses. You know what I mean. You could see people doing things, but the term free will doesn't necessarily pop up in the ways that we discuss colloquially today. What actually pops up the most is slavery. You know, either you're a slave to Christ or you're a slave to sin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the concept is there, just like the trinity. The word trinity is not in the Bible, but the concept is there. I think Genesis free, where man chose to eat of the fruit, is a concept of free will. I really do think it's in the Bible, but I want to say free will. Outside of the Holy Spirit, no man will choose not to sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:The inside, the Holy Spirit, are after origin of the horror. If we choose to accept it, God Him, that's the difference. But do you think that all things are predetermined by God, that God has predetermined all things in sin? No, no.
Speaker 1:I think that, in the vein when I think about free will and determinedism Vianni, I think you know this is I'm live on YouTube right now.
Speaker 2:Well, I have to edit it a little bit. Yeah, that's funny. That's okay, just send me an edit and I'll just stop there.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I'm going to turn the camera so you can run back past later, but just turn it off when you need to, yeah, but anyway. So I think that when I think about the free will thing, I think like I don't think God determines what specific sins people are going to commit. I just think that you're not as bad as you're going to be, but the total depravity the fall of Adam makes you start to pick specific sins that you are privy to. And so when I say like free will, I think like you're free to pick what sin you want to do, but I don't think you are free to turn away on your own. Okay, so in the overall schema thing, you can pick whether you're going to do weed or heroin, but once you make that choice you can't take yourself out of it.
Speaker 2:Let's just say the bad substances. So it'll get banned, which I don't. I hope. Yeah, let's hope nothing. Nobody's the only thing bad.
Speaker 1:I barely caught it myself. I was like, oh God.
Speaker 2:No, I opened it and no one did. To be honest, with you, if it wasn't for the live it wouldn't bother me, like if we were just talking and just I think we will be okay, we'll be fine. I've seen worse on the tick-tock, but yeah, that's where that's a big difference between Armenianism and Calvinism. We see that God freely invites everyone. I think the predestined verses, I think.
Speaker 2:I do think there's a difference between predetermined and predestined. We are all predestined for salvation. We're not all predetermined, and I chop that up to God's foreknowledge. It's not going to surprise God who's in heaven and who is not. He foreknows us. But I know people like James Lyre would throw that apart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think there's a difference. I can't say that I can fully understand the difference. What I don't like to go into is what they call. I think it's like openness theology, where they play around with well, you know, god doesn't know everything. He kind of knows what he needs to know. He can't predestine because he actually is not aware. He knows the fine details but not the events.
Speaker 2:And I just said I mean there's a few other explanations about God's, you know, because what we're wrestling with is God's sovereign will and man's will and salvation, and we're a lot closer than sometimes. We're closer than we are far apart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a difference.
Speaker 2:Then you have mollinism. I don't understand mollinism. I'll be honest with you. I need to study it more. It doesn't make much sense doing. Then you know, plagianist was a heretic, you had his view. And then havinism and armenianism. I understand this a lot more than I understand the millennial of the millennia.
Speaker 2:I don't understand it at all. I don't think there's a pre-tribulation rapture, but I do think there's a rapture of the church. But I'm hoping Postmill is right. That's where I'm hoping is right. I don't know if it is or not and I'm starting to lean Postmill in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:I'm hoping that if I'm here when all that happens, I get raptured up before yeah.
Speaker 2:Hey so would you be more of a pre-mill?
Speaker 1:Or you know, I'm going through this series now where I'm really trying to staple it down and figure it out, and I'm going through this thing and it's like 400 pages to where I really try to, because for a long time I just really started to think like eschatology, you know, shocking key like eschatology just wasn't that important. The important part was getting the gospel right and who Jesus was. And you know, just since, like when I was growing up, all the battles that we were trying to have was about, like the Bible and the inheritance of Scripture, you know, and is the Bible inherent and is it completely the Word of God? And so that was a fight. And then it's the. You know, what does it actually take to be saved? And that was a fight. And then it was, you know, fighting people, or you know people who were more legalistic, and then it was the woman's pastor's conversation, and then it was the gifts of the spirit debates and the eschatology thing was just seemed like it was something that nobody really touched.
Speaker 1:It was really debating that. The only thing about eschatology that I really knew was the left behind series, you know, and that was it. I remember I had that.
Speaker 2:I watched it. They showed it to us in our youth group as a kid. I mean like it has an interesting concept for maybe a movie.
Speaker 1:I just remember reading, you know, some of the books and I was like this is pretty interesting. And I definitely was scared and I was like if I wake up one day and everybody's gone and I'm still here, I've been like, oh, I didn't make it. And so I remember. But when I actually heard the term, the rapture was just my friend, ty Slosh, so my wrestling team. He just said, darryl, do you believe in the rapture? And I was like, what's the rapture, you know? And he was just like, well, and he explained it to me and I was like, oh, I don't know, we didn't talk about that in my church and all the times that I went to St Stephen's, this wasn't a sermon that they were preaching you know, I think I think Methodists are normally, are they?
Speaker 2:Well, it was just. You know, I don't know much about your church, but it's just like Methodism that have Calvinists in it at the beginning. It's a very Armenian thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just like John.
Speaker 2:West freedom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are very, as the term would say, methodological. If it's not in the program, it's not going to happen. And you have the scriptures that you read in the beginning the doxology, the, this, the that, the two songs, the standing, the sitting, the response, the callback, the sermons, the offering, the alter call, the benediction. You know, and I remember, you know I used to be able to, not even looking at the program, say everything like the back of my hand, because that's just what you always said in the church. And you know, even when you're singing the hymnals, and that was just that.
Speaker 1:The only real surprise was what the choir was going to sing and what the preacher was going to preach about. You know, and so it was very much of. Everything must be in order. You know there must be order, and so the only things that were not scripted was they would get somebody to pray, but you would know who was going to pray. The name would be in the program, but you didn't know what they were going to pray. Okay, and we did have altar calls and they do ordain, you know, women ministers, so, but in the church that I was at, there's not just one preacher, there's a board of ministers, and what I didn't like about it is they do transfer their pastors, and so you could really, you know, I would just say, identify with one person and they're great, and then the next person comes and you're like, oh, what do we get?
Speaker 2:So did y'all get a schedule? You're just like man. Yeah, pastor Rob's preaching on Sunday.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, you didn't know. You didn't know until you opened the program of who was preaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like all Dan's preaching, so that ain't gonna come Now.
Speaker 1:You would know when you walked in and got a program, because it would have you know sermon and then under the sermon it may have the pastor's name you know under there.
Speaker 1:And now they've gotten so technical because of COVID and the internet the pastor's sermons are kind of preknown by the sound person, so as he's preaching you can see it on the screen and it'll be like the goodness of God, and this is like all right, this is the part where he's talking about the goodness of God, and it'll say and it'll show like the verse, and then he'll be saying something like and so it's very it's going to end at this point in time, you know, and that's what it's going to be and so it is in that vein. But I also just from my observations not being good or bad, I think for one reason or the other they started to turn towards more of the social gospel as well, and and they really will get involved in a lot of social issues, but but not too heavy, where they won't like being the pulpit calling out you know politicians by name.
Speaker 1:But they'll, you know, every now and then they'll throw in a little point and everybody will be, oh yeah, you know, and and and, so it's, it's, it's kind of, you know, you get different things from different you know elders. I would just say Okay.
Speaker 2:Sorry about all the stuff. My funeral was dying and I guess it came on blood, so I had to find the you didn't want.
Speaker 1:You didn't want us to have the problem we had last day.
Speaker 2:I know, I know, hey, before we close up or anything, last time I talked about Sodom and Gomorrah with irresistible grace. No, with, yeah, irresistible grace. So we have a picture of the angels going to Sodom and Gomorrah and God in my mind. God shows lots family grace, but then, as they are leaving the city, he gives them one command and that's don't look back. And Lot's wife looks back. I know you said that that's Lot's wife. This will be in God's command and I agree. But is it also not God? Is it Lot's wife denying God's grace too?
Speaker 1:See, I think about that in a sense of like. It says that she turned to the pillar of salt, but it never gives us, like, the fullness of like, why this thing happened. So let's just what, if I was to postulate something like that, a man in his true nature can't see an angel without dying, you know, and you. And what she turns around and sees the angels on full display, you know, and their un, you know. This is a human brain concept, you know, and this is like. So we postulate that like, well, she was a sinner and she loves sin, and yada, yada, yada, yada, she could have saw an angel in his true form and that was just enough to make her combust, you know. And so it's like we actually don't know that, but we. But what we can say is like two things are true. One, she did disobey to, she was not saved. You know what I mean. But what we don't know is is if that is the actual call to, then, once the person puts their hand to the plow and and turns away, they, they don't get salvation, you know, type of thing. All I can say is for sure is we know she disobeyed now, but at the same time you can say, but that was very different.
Speaker 1:You see, that the person that's deciding to make the strict judgment is, you know, god. He didn't make the same strict judgment when it came to Eve, you know, who not only disobeyed, but the disobeyment, you know, caused their husband to stumble and then cast us all into having to have a debate about total depravity. When, when, when, when Lot's wife sinned, she just damned herself. When Eve sinned, she somewhat damned us all. So why didn't God immediately just turn her to a pillar of salt, you know? And so I would say you still have to deal with the two. There's, there's a command, there's disobedience, and then it's God who decides if he's going to be gracious or not. How much grace is he's going to, he's going to yield. So, at the same time, we don't know if God did that for Lot's sake. So if Lot loved a wife who was unbelieving and and God, for for Lot's satisfaction, or, or, you know, had to show a God, wanted to show him, even though he didn't have to, I'm giving your wife a chance.
Speaker 1:I'm not just going to say, oh, she's ungodly, she can't go with you. And now you, you're all upset and you're custom God, because you know the state. And the third you're going to know exactly why she's going to get turned to a pillar of salt. You're going to know that she sinned, and you know what I mean. That's that. So we don't know the why. We just know that, that, and so it's just like we don't. We don't keep the Sabbath in the way that traditional, no way it covered it Jews did. But God doesn't turn us to pillars of salt for picking up sticks, you know, on a Sunday. And so it's just like. I am fairly certain that we probably sin a lot more than the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, but you know he hasn't sent any angels to kill us all yet. You know, not saying that it's not on the way, but even with everything that I would, I would say they were bad. We may be worse. You know, and here it is, god is still showing us grace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I do. I do agree that that verse definitely shows disobedience, and but when it shows them also, as God sometimes, will enact judgment immediately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean even in the. We see it more in the Old Testament, but he does it in the New Testament too, with the two people who lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, With an, an eye, a sense of fire, yeah, but what I also say is like not to not to be mean about it, but he does it in the same way now, in the same way of like all the diseases and all the sicknesses and all the plagues and all the illnesses and everything else that you get from doing that. You know you can explain it away and say, well, no.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of national tragedies. We, we think it's just the evil of man, and it is, but it's God using the evil of man to judge us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, and so it's just that nobody wants to. Just to say that but it's. It's if God is sovereign and God is in control, god can either save you from it or he's going to let it happen. You know what I mean, and so I just wrestle with that that we, we are evil, but we are not as evil as we could be. That's true, and and and even that is an act of grace.
Speaker 2:I agree with that. You know, God prevented, you know, Pharaoh from sleeping with Abraham's wife when he said it was his sister.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he prevented that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, all good things is the glory of God, and then that's what I'm thinking, when I was saying that thing earlier, about there's sometimes God's doing some work that we don't even know and we don't understand. You know, I don't understand. You know Haiti, you know, and how it seems like here is a country that was brutally ruled by the French, you know, imagine that. And then they fight for liberation and then the French punishes them and says well, because you liberated yourself, you owe us, you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars. And then they pay the money, or the French steal the money, whoever, whatever your story you're listening to at the time, and it seems like they've never recovered. Then, in 1921, the US goes in and we try to help out with we send some Marines, and that doesn't work. And then, when Newt Gingrich is speaker of the house, bill Clinton even sends Jimmy Carter and you know somebody else over there, and that doesn't work. And it's just like I don't understand that.
Speaker 1:I understand how it's it's. We have these great lives and some three year old there is going to have a worm burrowing in his eye by the time he's three and be blind by the time he's four. I understand that either. But, but I but I can just say, well, as bad as it is, it could be a lot worse. And, and I say all we could see is when.
Speaker 1:I look at the Bible a lot of times, I think about it like this when, when, when God created men and then created Eve out of his rib, he literally told them one thing that they shouldn't do. That's it, and they did it.
Speaker 1:So then he was like all right, so let's, let's work on this again. I'm going to tell you 10 things not to do. And he did all 10 of those things. And then the the prophets came and says all right, I'm going to make a comprehensive list. You have Leviticus. Don't do any of these things.
Speaker 1:And they did all those things. And then so because God kept saying don't do this, but make it very simple, don't do this one. You did it, dang. Don't do these 10. You did it, dang, they'll do this whole book. You did it, he had to are decided to send his son.
Speaker 1:So I say, like there's your Armenian verse right there, but there's also your total depravity. God keeps saying don't. You keep saying, yeah, I am, you know. And so God has to constantly reach down through the prophets, through the spirit, through himself, and say I have to save you from me because you can't. You clearly can't do it.
Speaker 1:You know, I gave you the garden, you rebelled. I gave you the law, you rebelled. I gave you my son, you rebelled. So when I, when I enact my, my judgment, don't look at me and say it's not fair. You know, and that's what I look at. When I look at it, from from the beginning of Genesis to revelations, it is us rebelling. You know, even after Jesus and you have Paul, well, paul didn't know. Jesus is here, we're all just going to be safe. No, paul's running around killing them, killing folks, you know. And then, after his conversion now you have the intelligence, the historical position as far as his race, the political position as far as him being a member of the Sanhedrin, the political position as far as him being a Roman he still gets. He still gets beheaded.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, well, last time we talked about Westboro I wanted to do that again, but before we do remember the band words, oh, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, I looked more in them. I knew about them before and I read some of their statement of faith and it's crazy because you read some of it's like, yeah, I agree with that, believe that, believe that, believe that. And then, and then you realize that these are evil people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I would just say about them, which and I think I said them the last thing people in the Calvinist movement hate to admit that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church the Calvinists, you know, and it is what it is and even when it came to civil rights, fred Phelps did a lot of good things. When it came to civil rights movement. I don't know exactly why he took the turn that he took when it came to all the evil things he would do and making people's lives so difficult, especially when they when they died. I heard the interviews where he said that he felt like that America had idols and I think that America does have idols. When he postulated that America's idol was his military, was the military, I think that that I think that he's not 100% or he was not 100% wrong with that.
Speaker 1:I don't think his approach to trying to make that a react fix that was was gracious. You know, are in love and what I think is the example is that there will always be idols. You know, men will always try to worship the creature rather than the creator, because man is primarily in love with himself and self seeking and and, of course, a country is going to worship his good things and one of the things about that is you're going to try to protect your good things by having this mighty military, and I think that friend Phelps started to somewhat believe that in that America things it can do whatever it wants to do, including change certain statutes and do these things, and it uses the military to push about a bunch of social policies and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Well, they whisper on. It makes it hard for what I kind of feel and a calling to do in that street ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember. I remember when we used to do this counter protesting, you know, against them and stuff like that, and I would just say like I would steal to the street ministry stuff only only because I don't want the crazy people to be the only ones that that people get to have as the representative. Not everybody has the internet, Not everybody's going to listen to podcasts and it just may be that one person that they have contact with. I remember one time somebody approaching me a food line and, you know, outside, when I was walking in and asking me you know about Jesus and stuff like that. Now it turns out I did, but, but but I wasn't offended by it, I was. I was offended by it.
Speaker 1:Very recently somebody walked up to you know, one of my friends just last month and preached the gospel to her and she went and got baptized, you know, and she hadn't been to church or anything in forever. So the thing is, you are called, are demanded and commanded to go out and preach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say, unless Westboro Baptist Church messed it up and embarrassed you, you know.
Speaker 2:I've done it a few times. My church is actually. I've got a couple of homemade signs I've made. I actually made one through like time that they do like can't like do like political signs, so it's like I'll get those expensive. Finally, I pay. I got is like $30 for one sign. Yeah, it's just a standard sign that you put in your honor, but my church is going to help me out. I've texted my, my, my deacon about it and well, he's he's not the head of the church but he's on the board, so they call it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, even if you were to wear it, wear a shirt. You know, jesus saves, or Jesus, you know something like that. And I think we have to not be afraid and not be ashamed of the gospel. You know, I'm not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of Christ into salvation. You know what I mean. And so if, no matter what I think about theology or anything else, I'm supposed to do a few things, one, be it being an example that wouldn't last even the the name of Jesus Christ. The other thing is to actually tell people who Jesus Christ is, because you know who is telling people who Jesus Christ is? A bunch of people who we probably think are heretics, and they're not. They're they're. They're not shy to say who Jesus Christ is.
Speaker 2:And if those, if heretics with ties, riding bicycles, you know a certain books, if they're willing to do that for a fake Jesus, are we willing to? Like it bothers me, like it really bothers me, that some people they really think the lost for the way we're going to reach the losses only through church. A lot of people that are lost don't go to church. You have to go and get them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you have to get them where they are. But also I think that on a practical level and this goes back to a little bit of the holiness stuff that I think they were trying to do is sometimes your example is the fact that you don't do what the world is doing, you know. And then they, even though you're not saying anything, they see a difference. And then I say study and show yourself approved that when they ask you you'll be able to give an account. You know, I remember I heard someone say one time but people ask me what I do for a living, I say I have the most amazing job I get to go and tell people how to get saved and escape hell. Are you interested? And he said, of course that's not really what my job was, but I was trying to get to the heart of the matter.
Speaker 1:Like I'm not interested in small talk, I'm interested in, you know, soul talk. And it was just one of those things where I think I don't know if it's because of the way the culture is headed and the way sometimes people have church hurt and we're embarrassed by them so we don't say anything, but I will say that there is a war right now going on, and it's always a spiritual battle, but there is a outright war going now, oh God, now, against Christians and Christian people in the country, and we have to say this is where we stand, and we have to affirm things that may not be popular to affirm, but we have to, and we have to say what hills we're going to die on and we have to know that the spirit will do the rest of the work. You know, and I've been seeing conversations being had about topics that I would have never thought that would have been had a few years ago and I'm only 38 years old, you know. And so when society is changing, there has to be somebody there giving a witness to what the truth is. You know, a right, right thinking in a world going crazy.
Speaker 1:So I would say that, man, and this is why it's difficult for me to to follow a certain path here sometimes, even if I think they're right, I think sometimes you get on this path of trying to be pure and try to do this and then you fall into legalism and then all you do is attack other Christians all the time. You know, and I used to call them heresy hunters when I was first studying this stuff and I said you guys probably agree on 97% of things and you're going to fight to the death over that last little percentage and all I see is all these, all these lost people out here and you're not even talking to them. You know what a shame, what a shame yeah.
Speaker 2:It is a shame. Well, daryl, thanks for coming on the show. I'll talk to you after we turn off the live and podcast and everything.
Speaker 1:So all right, let me, let me make sure everything saved.