The Darrell McClain show
Independent media that won't reinforce tribalism. We have one Planet; nobody's leaving so let’s reason together!! Darrell, McClain is a Military veteran with an abnormal interest in politics, economics, religion, philosophy, science, and literature. He was born and raised in Jacksonville FL, and went to Edward H white High School where he wrestled Under Coach Jermy Smith and The Late Brian Gilbert. He was a team wrestling captain, District champion, and an NHSCA All-American in freestyle Wrestling. He received a wrestling scholarship from Waldorf University in Forest City, Iowa. After a short period, he decided he no longer wanted to cut weight which effectively ended his college wrestling journey. Darrell Mcclain is an Ordained Pastor under The Universal Life Church and is still in good standing, he's a Believer in The Doctrines of Grace Also Known as Calvinism. He joined the United States Navy in 2008 and was A Master At Arms (military police officer) He was awarded several awards while on active duty including an expeditionary combat medal, a Global War on Terror medal, a National Defense Medal, a Korean defense medal, and multiple Navy achievement medals. While In the Navy he was also the assistant wrestling coach at Robert E Lee High School. He's a Brown Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under six six-degree black belt Gustavo Machado, Darrell Trains At Gustavo Machado Norfolk under the 3rd-degree black belt, and Former Marine Professor Mark Sausser. He went to school for psychology at American Military University and for criminal justice at ECPI University.
The Darrell McClain show
Examining Gender Controversies and Misrepresentation in Olympic Boxing
Can the media's portrayal of athletes manipulate public perception? Join us as we explore the explosive controversy surrounding Algerian Olympic boxer Imani Khalifi, whose gender was called into question after an abrupt match against Angelina Carlini at the Paris Olympics. We'll dissect the misinformation spread by conservative outlets and how the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and spokesperson Mark Adams set the record straight. Discover the unwavering support Khalifi has received from prominent advocates, her impressive achievements in boxing, and the broader implications this scandal has had on gender norms in sports.
Step into the ring with us as we unravel the tangled web of boxing politics, focusing on the unexpected pauses and outcomes in Khalifi and Carney's matches that left the audience speculating. We scrutinize the role of the International Boxing Association (IBA) and its President Umar Kremlev, delving into the organization's financial transparency issues and the conspiracy theories involving Russian influence. We also revisit Khalifi and Lin's controversial disqualifications at the 2023 World Championships, examining the reactions and demands for change in the sport's rules and processes.
The debate over transgender athletes in sports takes center stage as we present various perspectives and personal stories that highlight the complexities of this issue. From college football players to former female athlete Crystal Ball, we hear about the challenges of balancing fairness and inclusion in sports. Reflecting on cases like Castor Semenya's, we critique how the media often skews narratives and spreads misinformation. This episode offers a nuanced discussion on gender identity and competitive fairness, aiming to provide a deeper understanding of one of sports' most contentious debates.
Welcome to the Darrell McLean Show. I'm your host, darrell McLean. Independent media that will not reinforce tribalism. We have one world, one planet. Nobody is leaving, so let us reason together.
Speaker 1:Today, we're going to be talking about the Imani Khalifi Olympics discourse. We're going to explain this, as well as the false information that was spread around about the Algerian Olympic boxer, and we're going to touch into the larger discussion around this issue. Our quote of the day, because I think it's pressing on this matter, is a lie can get around the world before the truth can even get out of bed and put its attacks on the internet. After several social media accounts After a boxing match at the Olympics, she started to ask a lot of questions about the gender of the boxer in the Paris Olympics. Now, khalifi entered the ring on Thursday to face Karini. Entered the ring on Thursday to face, uh, carlini. The match, however, ended a mere 46 seconds later because Carlini said she took a punch to the nose and it was so much pain that she it was more, she had been hit harder than she had ever been hit in her life.
Speaker 1:Conservative social media pages in particular sparked outrage, saying Khalif failed to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in women's competition, as set and laid out by the IBA regulations, according to a BBC report. Now the IOC spokesperson, mark Adams, however, issued a statement on Friday clarifying that Khalif has always been a woman. The Nigerian boxer was born a female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport. End quote. According to PBS News, adams added that there has been a lot of misinformation around social media particularly, which is damaging. The IOC also released another statement on the IBA's decision earlier this week. Per PBS News, the IOC stated that this was a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA when Khalifa and Taiwanese Ling's team were suddenly disqualified without due process.
Speaker 1:Khalifa continues to face hatred from conservative outlets and right-wing politicians, like Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, who tweeted quote he is a fraud, an imposter and a liar. A real woman, angelina Carlini, who trained for years to box the Olympic, angelina Carlini, who trained for years to box the Olympic, is defeated by a real man pretending to be a woman. Shame on everyone who allows men to compete against women. Democrats support this. On the flip side, khalifa is receiving love and support from prominent advocates such as Gabriel Union, who wrote on ex-Family Known as Twitter transphobia, misogyny and good old, plain racism for many athletes not fitting into the arbitrary gender norms that create this whirling dervish and bigotry, harassment and abuse.
Speaker 1:Iman Khalif this is said by Tori Smith. Iman Khalif was born a woman. Where does the she was born a man take come from? Karni refused to shake Kareena refused to shake Khalif's hand after the match, according to Bossip, but insists she wasn't trying to make any type of political statement. It wasn't something I intended to do. I actually wanted to apologize to her and everyone else. I was actually just angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke. Carney has since issued an apology for how she handled herself at the match on Thursday. I'm sorry for my opponent too. She said. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision. Khalifi defeated Anna Lucho Haruni of Hungary in Saturday's quarterfinals, advancing and guaranteeing her at least a bronze medal. On Sunday she also put out a statement condemning bullying, which I'm going to get into a bit later.
Speaker 1:So let me get a little bit deeper in here about the questions and answers about the Olympics, women boxing and this gender controversy. The 46 seconds of boxing match that, uh, seemed to sidetrack the 2024 Olympics into a heated controversy about the gender of the two women in the field was both Amani Khalif spawned intense interest in numerous questions, some which have clear answers and some which do not. The subjects include questions about women themselves, philosophical queries about how sports approach gender and practical questions about how boxing tournaments and the Olympics are actually run. So here's what we actually know, with a large caveat that some elements of this situation are unclear and may not be knowable. So first, who is Amani Khalifi Khalif, a 25-year-old competing at the Paris Games in the 66 kilogram, that is, 145 pounds, and they clinched at least a bronze medal. As I earlier stated, she finished in fifth place at 60 kilogram at 132 pound division at the Tokyo Games. She is 39 and 9 9, including one professional bout. She has a notable past loss in the 2021 Olympic quarterfinals and in the 2022 World Championship finals. Khalif won silver at the 2022 World Championships and gold medals at the 2022 African Championships and the 2022 Mediterranean Games and the 2023 Arab Games.
Speaker 1:Now how do the Olympics classify Khalifa's gender? The International Olympic Committee so that's the ILC officials, have said the Games primarily rely on the passports, along with other official national documentation and medical clearances, to distinguish men's and women's divisions in boxing and many other sports. Some sports have additional requirements. Khalifi was assigned female at birth. It says female on her birth certificate and has always identified on her legal documents as a woman. According to the ILC, she has lived her entire life as a woman and is listed as a woman on her passport. The ILC spokesman, marks Adams, said on Friday the father of Khalif had to actually get involved and and put out a video that you can see on Sky News. He said my child is a girl. She was raised a girl. She was born a girl. I am her father. Omar Khalif said in the video. She is a strong girl because I raised her to be hardworking and brave.
Speaker 1:Algeria's president, abdelina Taboud applauded Khalifa on Friday with a social media post saying Khalifa has honored Algeria, algerian women and Algerian boxing, before saying the nation will stand by her, no matter what your results are. Algerian law actually does not allow people to change their gender on official documents according to their websites. That tracks the LGBT laws of the country. Now, that is according to Eklidax. Laws of the country. Now, that is according to Eklidax. This is not a transgender case. Adams later said, adding scientifically, this is not a man fighting a woman. Now let me get into this the other fighter and then I'm gonna make some personal uh comments about this.
Speaker 1:So Lin Yang Ting is 25, 57 kilograms, which is 126 pounds, and she beat Cephalana Kazimova-Stevina of Bulgaria in the quarterfinals on Sunday to clinch at least a bronze medal. Lin also competed in Tokyo, finishing in ninth place in 57 kilograms. So that's 126 pounds. She is a two-time gold medalist at the Asian Championships, a two-time gold medalist at the World Championships and won a gold medal in 2022 Asian Games games.
Speaker 1:So how does the olympics classify lynn's gender? Like khalif olympic officials have repeatedly said, lynn has met every benchmark to fight in the women's adventure. Lynn is registered as female on her birth certificate. According to cho tang-sin, a city council member in new tapis who spoke, who spoke with the Tapeean Times, lin is registered as a female on her birth certificate. The text for jokes from last year was not even about chromosomes. Cho said it took her years of hard work to get to where she is today. She has proven herself to be the pride of Taiwan.
Speaker 1:So what is the controversy? Khalifa and Lin are competing after they were disqualified from 2023 Women's Boxing World Championships. At those championships, they filled with the International Boxing Association so that's the IBA characterized as gender eligibility test, but written details about the test have not been officially released and the IBA's administration of the championships has been headily criticized. This week, the association issued a statement that described the test using only vague terms. Athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination, but were subject to separate recognized tests, whereby specific remains confidential. Whether specifics remain confidential, the same said. This test conclusively identified that both athletes did not meet the required necessarily eligibility criteria and found to have a competitive advantages of other female competitors.
Speaker 1:Now how did this thing escalate? Tension turned quickly to Khalif and Lynn when they were cleared to compete in Paris. In Paris, the IOC overseeing boxing at the 2024 Games after the IBA was stopped from running the Olympic Tournament in 2019. Stopped from running the Olympic tournament in 2019. There were numerous disputes, including allegations of unfair judging and a lack of financial transparency by the IBA. In April, the IBA tried to force the IOC to let it run the Olympic boxing, but it lost its challenge with the Court of Arbitration for the sport. The administration spat led to the IBA and the IOC throwing bars at each other when they had differences in how they handled eligibility of boxers. Then things really boiled over when Khalif fought Carney. Carney conceded that the 42nd bout after squarely taking a hard punch, abandoning the fight. It's unusual, though not unprecedented, for boxers to give up in that way. It's a keen to throwing in the towel, as some corners do when they concede to fights. Karani says she is sad about the controversy that it has emerged Immediately after the bout. She says she couldn't continue to give in to the intense pain she endured from Khalifi's punches.
Speaker 1:Why is there confusion about these gender tests? And this is where things get murky. So, after the world championship disqualification in 2023, the IBA president, umar Kralim, told Russia's state-owned Nudia agency tasks that Khalifa Lin and X had XY chromosomes. Based on a DNA test, he said it was proven that they had XY chromosomes. Now, according to the National Institute of Health, the Y chromosome is the most commonly associated with male individuals, but the Y chromosome does not singularly define a person's sex. Kremlin accused the boxers of trying to deceive their competition by pretending to be women. According to the National Health Services in England, the presence of an XY chromosome in women can only be determined with with a chromosomal testing, usually given in the form of a ultrasound or a blood test. It is not known if Khalif Marlin underwent such testing, because the IBA has not shared more details about the test. The ILC also raised objections to how the tests were carried out and administered, in parts because Khalif and Lynn were determined to be ineligible only after they had clinched the world championship medals. So why do the details about the biology actually matter?
Speaker 1:Now this cuts to the heart of so many of the complex questions about gender and sports. These are subjects that illuminate disagreements filled with details that aren't always as simple to find or explain. Thomas Botch, the president of the IOC, has a job that requires him to regularly talk about these issues publicly. Yet even he had an example of a dangerous imprecision on Saturday. Initially, he said during the news conference that Calise and Lynn were not examples of athletes with different sex developments, or DSD, a broad term used for people who were born with characteristics that do not strictly fit into a long-held association with descriptions of male or females. Minutes later, the IOC sent a correction and said Batch had misspoken. He meant to say that instead, that the athletes were not transgender, as he had said in earlier remarks to the IOC. So much of the online discourse around the boxers has included false assumptions about their genders, prompting comparisons with the wide range of sports that have a wide range of rules set by their federations. Botch then said that the IOC would not take part in what he called politically motivated sometimes politically motivated culture war. Politically motivated culture war, and he repeated the IOC calls for a national boxing organization to unite under the new umbrella. This is not the IBA, and we agree on better rules.
Speaker 1:So what happened during the belief to the? During this, uh, brief fight? You know, khalif and Carney touched gloves. The fight started. They opened with punching, pawing and jabs to zero in their range. Khalif took control at the center of the ring and landed a short uppercut. Carney actively counterpunched but put her left hand up in 36 seconds to get her head gear readjusted. After the brief pause, carnie ate a stiff right straight from Kalief. She put her left hand in the air again. To concede, kalief's punch wasn't delivered particularly forcefully, but it landed flush and Carnie opened up her stance and lifted her chin while throwing a wick hook. While throwing a wick hook, Khalif and Lynn in this situation didn't do anything wrong. So I don't think that they will be disqualified from the Olympics.
Speaker 1:The IOC released a statement Thursday reiterating that every athlete in the boxing tournament completed and complied with the game's eligibility and entry regulations. On Friday, adam said the 2023 disqualification rendered Khalif and Lynn's victims of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA. Those positions make it highly unlikely that Khalif and Lynn would be disqualified on the basis of gender in the middle of the Olympics tournament. On the contrary, khalif clinched at least a bronze on Saturday with a win against the athlete Analucia Hummery of Hungary. There was some posturing, but it played out mostly like a normal fight, with Khalif taking a unanimous decision. Eligibility rules should not be changed during an ongoing competition and any change must follow appropriate processes and should be based on scientific evidence. Adams said Now we're going to get into a little bit of this IOC stuff. Okay, who is Umar Kremlev and why is the IBA at odds with the IOC? So Kremlin has overseen the IBA since 2020 and has ties with the Russian president, vladimir Putin.
Speaker 1:In May, a report from Chinese state-run television network said Kremlin was a part of the Russian delegation chosen by Putin to promote sports in China. The IBA has also had a financial backing from Russia's state-owned energy company, gazprom, which it announced in 2021 as a sponsorship that would help keep it from insolvency, and during the games, the IBA had been defending its choice and netting the IOC. On Friday, kremlin said the IBA would award Karania prize money as if she were an Olympic champion. I couldn't look at her tears, kremlin said in a statement. I do not understand why they kill women's boxing. Only eligible athletes should compete in the ring for the sake of safety.
Speaker 1:The IBA has been the governing body for most of the sports international competitions that have fractured the world of boxing. That doesn't cover a headline professional bites like the ones fans would normally buy on pay-per-view. Those are generally put on individual promotion companies. The IBA was the first international federation to lose its IOC association, along with allegations of manipulating ballots. At the 2016 Olympics, the IBA promised to hand out more than $3 million in prize money to fighters and teams in Paris in 2024. That led to the IOC to issue an ultimatum. That led to the IOC to issue an ultimatum. Countries who stay loyal to the IBA could be. Countries who stay loyal to the IBA could be barred from competing in boxing at the 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles. This is a total lack of financial transparency was exactly one of the reasons why the IOC or the ICC withdrew its recognition of the IBA. The IOC said in May.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to get to one last point of what happened at 2023 in the World Championships. So in March of 2023, khalifa rode past the Jamin Swamping of Thailand to qualify for the world championship finals. But hours before the final next day, khalifa was disqualified and Suping fought instead and lost. There are several countries that did not want the Algerian to win the gold medal. Khalifa told the Algerian and her TV after the tournament this is a conspiracy, a big conspiracy, and we will not be silent about it. Earlier, in the same tournament, she had defeated the Russian boxer Azalea Amizia. Also on March 23rd, lin fell to Kazan boxer Karina Abramova In the semifinals and clinched a bronze medal. Lin was stripped of that medal the next day. On Friday, the IOC said Khalif and Lin were not giving any due process. What's left for Khalif and Lynn at the Paris Games? Khalif's the semifinal on Tuesday is an actual rematch with Supingo Behar at the World Championships semifinals. The final for their divisions are scheduled for Friday. Lynn will face Turkey's Arisa Yadiz in the semifinals on Wednesday and the final for that I'm sorry is on Saturday. So it actually what is being alleged is that because Khalifa at the World Championships, at the world championships, beat the Russian fighter who had not been beaten in years and then the other athlete beat a Russian, that the Russian governing body rigged the process and disqualified them and came up with a pretense after the fact.
Speaker 1:I want to get into the larger discussion about this event From a personal standpoint. Event From a personal standpoint, just in all transparency. When I first got online, saw what had been posted, I was initially outraged. I thought it was unfair, and what I try to do in practice is, whatever my initial reaction is, I do not take that to the audience. I study what happened. So I posted initially just a little comment that if people did not like what had happened, that they should go to the International, you know, basically to the IOC. I posted a link for the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, of the 147th session with all the people and I said you contact this. You could have had this. There's a process, there's a rules. This is just like legislation If you don't like the rules, you get the rules changed. Then I realized where the athlete was from, where the athlete was from, and that's when things started to become way more fuzzy.
Speaker 1:So, as stated the boxer, one of them, amani, represents the country of Algeria. It is actually illegal there to be trans, which is an issue on its own. Algeria would not send a trans athlete to compete. And then I had to think about the other narratives that were being said. They said the person had DSD. And I looked and looked and looked and there was no information that said the person had, khalif had, dsd. There was nothing that said she was on DSD. There was nothing that said that Khalif was transgender. There was nothing that said that Khalif was transgender. So what ends up happening here is it was just the way that celebrities like JK Rowling and Elon Musk and Jake Paul said that this person looked like.
Speaker 1:This is where we get into very murky, tricky and unsophisticated territory. You have what we call, historically, a moral panic. I was very familiar with this growing up in the 90s because all the talk then was about gay people, gays and the Boy Scouts, gays and this gays and that Can gay people be in the military, can gay people serve in the church, can gay people be priests, can gay people be at a restaurant, et cetera, et cetera. Well, there were people who were striding on that issue. And now look across political parties, about 61% kind of agree on the gay thing. Now Old news. Nobody talks about it, not as much as we talked about it in the 90s, and it is, in my opinion, just the trans communities turn at rallying people up because they have become a part of the political conversation. Most people do not care about the issue. Most people have not thought about the issue. It is an issue that has been hoisted upon them by people who are going to use the issues for political purposes to propagate their ideas around the cultural war, and they go from one subject to the next subject and this is just the next subject, and in a year they'll move on to something else.
Speaker 1:But I do want to deal with the larger question that is at hand Should Trans athletes participate in sports in the gender that they identify? So I asked several people, several people who are athletes, three football players that I know, three football players that I know that played college football as well, who happened to be my nephews. The first one said no, that is easy. The second one then said no. The first one that said no said, if you're talking about the boxer lady, yes, she should be able to compete. She cannot help if her body produces testosterone, if she has DSD, she was born a woman and can have kids. And then the second nephew college football player, says they need to have their own genre or class. And don't give me that bull about segregation, I believe it's only fair. And then the other one replies or they can compete with their birth gender or not at all. And then they had a conversation with us. I don't know if that's fair either.
Speaker 1:Conversation goes further how, how can you be a world champ of anything if you don't compete with everybody Born a man, box, swim, whatever with the men? The other athlete goes on and says it would be for the trans women but not for the man, the biological woman taking testosterone and steroids and would basically get the shit beat out of them Then by a normal woman. It's an unfair advantage. You can't take all that stuff in the Olympics anyway. Fair advantage you can't take all that stuff in the Olympics anyway. Steroids, hgh, testosterone. Illegal athletes are illegal for athletes. And the other one replies a trans man takes that dope. That's how they get the manly features. But I see what you're cut where you're coming from. That's why I said initially they need their own class.
Speaker 1:I'm very proud of my nephews for going back and forward and trying to deal with the issues. I was actually shocked that they both somewhat you know agreed that there should be some competition. They got into the nuances between a trans man and a trans woman. You know very proud of them. When it came to another person, a patron, I asked should trans persons be able to compete in sports? Their answer was yes, with the caveat if they have been transitioning for a period of time and are post-surgery, then they should be able to compete in sports. Two of them, actually both who surprisingly said no, that they should not be able to compete in sports. One of them did say that they do think it is unfair and they concluded that people say things like that they need their own league, but nobody is putting the money together to get them their own division, our own leagues, but it's fair. It's not fair for them to be able to compete with cis-born women, but it is also not fair that they do not have their own league to participate in sports.
Speaker 1:When it comes to my own personal opinion, this is what I thought about when I was in Jacksonville, florida, as an athlete. Wrestling had been decimated in the state of Florida. So what ended up happening as I was growing up in wrestling is, you would often see young women competing against young men. It caused that outrage throughout the South. They said that they were teaching boys to beat up women and that the girls should have their own league. But in fact the girls did not have their own league, so girls wanted to compete with the boys. I wrestled at the lower weights 112 and 119 and 125.
Speaker 1:So growing up, even in high school, there were several times that I had to compete in a tournament against a female. I did not like it. I did not think it was fair. The funny thing is I did not think it was fair to me. I was upset because most of the time there was all these nice throws that I could do and I felt uncomfortable throwing a woman a woman Now, of course.
Speaker 1:At that time I was 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And I remember the audience, even though I was very good, district champion, et cetera, et cetera. They loved the idea of the girls beating the boys and they would just cheer and go crazy in the stands if they looked like they were getting close to getting a takedown, and you know, et cetera, et cetera, and I think that that is just the natural way that people approach the topic. But there is something in human nature that bristles when it's the other way, because people like the underdog, they like the female participating in the sport that the male said that they couldn't. I don't think that that necessarily works the other way around. I don't think anybody wants to see a male wrestling a female or a male going to the female's wrestling league, because there's no male wrestling league in getting on the female wrestling team. I don't think they'd be cheering.
Speaker 1:And I think that people who are transgender has jumped head into this conversation without even actually trying to be involved in it. The the natural reaction to to, uh, female versus a male is what they're having to deal with, even though when you look at the statistics, it's actually not a major part of this conversation. There are not hundreds and hundreds and thousands and millions of trans people trying to participate in sports, definitely not at a high level, but for political reasons, they have been put in this conversation and I must admit that the people trying to have the conversation are ill-equipped to have the conversation. I am on Instagram, twitter, facebook, tiktok, and I see the things people post although I do not always respond to the things that people post pontificate about this topic and get it so wrong and have so many opinions and have none of the facts. Let me just give you some advice that I think we can all carry for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1:Most of the time, any decision that I've ever made, any statement I've ever made when I was highly emotional, turned out to be the wrong decision. It turned out to be the wrong statement and it turned out to be the wrong action. We are pattern seeking, prideful animals and our natural instinct is normally not the correct one. So sometimes we need to shut up. Until we have all of the facts, we will know. We do know.
Speaker 1:We have a narrative that the media lies to you, manipulates you, puts out stories. Before there's all the information. We have a narrative where we say if it bleeds, it leads. Now, us knowing that will still see something come out on the internet which is nothing more than digital media and repeat it without doing any studying to see if what we just saw was true. We will pick up something from a politician without realizing that politicians are nothing better than used car salesmen and they are selling you a crock of bull. You are the mark. They want you to get ginned up because they want you to be on their team.
Speaker 1:Now, what do you do when you realize that the narrative that has been laid down before you was not correct? Did you go back and critique the politician? Did you change the team? Do you apologize for the narrative that has been set? Most of the time you don't. You will justify being wrong because you were wrong for the right reasons.
Speaker 1:This is what makes this conversation so pernicious and so foolish.
Speaker 1:This is supposed to be happening because a bunch of men want to protect a bunch of women and, in the process of trying to posture and pretend like you're trying to protect women's sports, you demonize two women for fitting a category that they weren't even in, and you did it because you don't find them attractive, because you've actually never been around a lot of female athletes who lift and do push-ups and who don't have big breasts, and so, because you didn't see the stuff you would normally see when you were trying to objectify women with your gaze, you immediately said a woman that was strong had to be a man, and that's a problem with you.
Speaker 1:So next time, don't just examine what you see before you open your mouth. Examine yourself. You open your mouth, examine yourself. A lot of people got this thing wrong and what's sad is they won't even know that they got it wrong. I'm gonna play this clip running out between uh segar, engine eddie and Crystal Ball, because Crystal Ball was a female D1 athlete and she had a good analysis about this point, and then I'll see you on the next episode Extremely ugly.
Speaker 3:We have a big old culture war fight that normally, sagar and I typically avoid these like the plague. If we're being totally honest, however, this one has been embraced by the top of the GOP ticket, both by Donald Trump and JD Vance, and I have to tell you it is one we're going to try to have a non-stupid discussion about it. It is actually a topic that I find challenging and intellectually interesting, so let's go ahead and dig into it. There was a women's boxing match in the Olympics. We can go ahead and put some of these images up on the screen.
Speaker 3:We have an Italian boxer, angela Carini, versus an Algerian boxer, amani Khalif, and this match ended very quickly. The Italian boxer took a couple of blows and then she forfeited the fight. She came out tearfully and we can actually put her comments up on the screen immediately afterwards and talked about why she decided to withdraw. Here are her comments in full. She said my face and nose were hurting. I couldn't breathe anymore. I thought about my family, I looked at my brother in the stands and I went to my corner to retire. I've never been hit with such a powerful punch. She added that the withdrawal was not a premeditated move. All this controversy, she said, makes me sad. Later on, she said this and she said she wanted to apologize to Imani for the controversy.
Speaker 3:And the controversy is that, after this withdrawal, a bunch of people online, including JK Rowling, began speculating that Imani was actually a man. Now, first of all, they were saying she's transgender. She is 100% not transgender. We can put E4 up on the screen. That has some of the details of this fight and what happened. So she was born a woman, woman on her passport, raised a woman, et cetera.
Speaker 3:However, there was another boxing organization that at one point had disqualified Imani, and another fighter is not meeting their gender criteria. Now this boxing organization has come under a lot of scrutiny. It's called the International Boxing Association. Has come under a lot of scrutiny. It's called the International Boxing Association. The Olympic Committee actually kicked them out from regulating the sport and took over the sport because they had all kinds of corrupt dealings. One of the guys that was running it was this Russian mob boss. Another person was super close to Putin, and it called into question this test that had allegedly found that Imani and another boxer who's also competing at the Olympics did not meet the gender criteria.
Speaker 3:And just to give you the backstory. I went too deep on this but anyway, to give you the backstory here, imani had just defeated a Russian fighter who at that point had been undefeated, and was this very promising amateur coming up? That point had been undefeated, and was this very promising amateur coming up? So Imani's been fighting, no problem, you know, in the women's category, raises women, et cetera, et cetera. She beats this Russian boxer and all of a sudden this very closely Russian tied organization disqualifies her and this other boxer for failing to meet their gender criteria. They told a Russian state-sponsored news organization that it was because she had an XY chromosome. However, since then they haven't been willing to verify what the test was or really speak about it. The Olympic Committee is standing by Amani's classification as a woman. We haven't heard really from Amayi herself her full side of the story.
Speaker 3:In any case, this sparked a whole political freakout and really a kind of like online mob going after her for her number one not looking sort of traditionally female. Number two this is just a total lie that she was transgender and sort of tying it into that debate. And then, number three, wild speculation about things that we really don't know. You know, it is possible that she has DSD differences in sexual development, or she's. The other word for that is intersex. That is possible.
Speaker 3:That could have been indicated by this test. We don't know for sure. It's possible that she has some sort of a hormonal disorder. Could be from DSD that causes her to produce more testosterone. We don't know that either. So what you've ended up with is just a bunch of wild speculation, and what I've found, you know, sort of offensive and has struck me as a former female athlete myself difficult about it and disturbing about it is the way that so much of it is just based on her appearance as not conforming to sort of traditional female beauty standards, and then just the fact that they're just completely lying that she's transgender, when she is not in fact transgender.
Speaker 2:Okay, I will say this I blame that Italian lady because she's the one who heavily implied that she lost as a result of her opponent being transgender. Now I'm not going to sit here and justify JK Rowling immediately coming out and not doing enough research. This is part of. The problem is that people want to sling takes. They want to take things at face value and now all of a sudden you know they take. They're like oh well, the IBA said at the International Boxing Association, nobody knows anything about the background and of course, there's a political incentive in order to portray that. I guess one of the only reasons I'm willing to cut some slack here is that there have been instances previously in college athletics and elsewhere where transgender athletes were allowed to compete in women's sports and they're obviously—I mean it's a reality that was created.
Speaker 2:that made it believable in the first place. That is not justifying people who are coming out and pushing these out, because I am not satisfied that there is any real evidence that this woman even has. What were you talking about? What was it? Dsd, I understand it. She passed the quote-unquote gender test at the International Olympic Committee, at the International Olympic Committee. I do understand, though, that the IOC and many of these countries have significant incentives sometimes to game the system, not just on gender, but for testosterone, hormone therapy, etc. As we all learned, it's so cheap. Countries are literally willing to go to extraordinary efforts to try and to deceive the Olympic Games. So I saw it within the context of people thought it was believable simply because it has literally happened, you know, previously, not only in combat sports, but also in other, you know, competitive athletics. I do feel bad for her, though, certainly, because just because somebody's created a reality where such an event would be certainly believable doesn't mean that she deserves to be victim of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, it made me think a lot and we've actually talked a little bit offline about this case of Caster Semenya, who is a sprinter and a runner. She's an extraordinary athlete and she faced similar scrutiny and it came out. And now, you know, I actually in some ways prefer to talk about Cor's case because we actually know the details, whereas with the money we genuinely don't know the details. Here there's just rampant speculation. One thing we do know she was identified female, but transgenderism is literally illegal in the country she's from right. She was identified female at birth, so she has the visual genital appearance as a female. Apparently love having to talk about these things.
Speaker 3:Um, she was raised as a girl. There's pictures of her as a very girly looking little girl with giant pink earrings and, um, in fact, she had huge obstacles to being able to train as a boxer because her dad didn't approve of girls boxing. Um, she and her. She came from a very poor family and a very conservative part of Algeria. She and her mom sold scrap metal and would cook and sell the food to raise money for her training, which she hid from her father because, as I said, he didn't approve because she was a girl. So it is heartbreaking to see the way that she has been, you know, unfairly attacked, smeared, lied about, et cetera, et cetera. But you know the case of Caster Semenya. It does raise really difficult questions because she is intersex or has DSD. She visually, you know, if you just were looking at the external bits, she looks like a woman. However, she doesn't have some of the internal bits fallopian tubes, ovaries, et cetera and because of the way she was naturally born, she naturally produces more testosterone than is the quote, unquote normal range for women. So what do you do with that? You know, this is like this is a woman by most metrics, but she naturally produces more testosterone than your average woman.
Speaker 3:Okay, Well, on the one hand you say, okay, well, maybe that's not fair. But then you also think about there are many competitive advantages which don't seem particularly fair. I'm sure Michael Phelps competitors didn't feel it was particularly fair that he's, like you know, built like a fish, with this insanely freakishly long wingspan and double-jointed ankles that allow him to get more propulsion out of his kick, and his body doesn't produce as much lactic acid as other athletes. He's another sort of genetic outlier which, of course, when you get to elite athletics you're going to find almost everybody who's competing at this level is going to be some sort of a genetic outlier.
Speaker 3:So I guess part of what I I don't have any easy answers for this, by the way I think it's actually a very difficult question to figure out where you draw the line, because no matter where you draw the line, it's going to be unfair to someone. Right? There is really no perfect answer. I think the answer also probably varies sport by sport, Like, for example, in boxing. You know, we've obviously decided it's not fair to have some giant person fighting against some tiny person, so they've instituted weight categories because it's not just you're not just losing a race, You're in the possibility of getting injured, getting hurt, and so that adds a level of care and concern about unfair advantages that could be dangerous to your competitor.
Speaker 3:So I think it could be different sport by sport. But I guess my big takeaway here is that a lot of the discourse on the right is very simplistic, just like women should be fighting women and men should be fighting men. And cases like Castor Semenya and potentially although we don't know cases like Amani Khalid shows that nature doesn't actually draw a really clear and obvious line. Usually yes, in 99.9% of cases it's very obvious. But especially in elite athletics, you're going to have these edge cases, these borderline cases that are really difficult and aren't really black and white. So, yeah, I think it's a very different case.
Speaker 2:Here you have somebody who's born naturally Again, we don't know. Okay, the IBA apparently claimed that. They say they have evidence, I don't know. They should release it. Okay, maybe the IOC should come out and clarify the situation too. Just to make it very clear but it's very different when you're born naturally and then when you're taking exogenous hormones, or if you're not taking exogenous hormones and you just happen to identify as female and you compete in female athletics. I think it's a totally different situation and that's what people are reacting to.
Speaker 1:And I get I mean again to be fair, this literally happened.
Speaker 2:The whole Leah Thomas situation. We have sprinters and other situations that happen here in the United States. So people are primed to believe it because it's a reality that was created, frankly, you know, by elite liberalism who thinks that this is somehow justifiable. So my line is quite simple If it's natural, I mean, I guess you know, if it's natural, it's within the conversation. If it's not natural, then no, I don't think it should be in the conversation.
Speaker 2:I don't think exogenous hormones should be illegal, really, period. You know, whenever it comes to elite athletics, lance Armstrong is a good example of why, you know, you have somebody naturally who had a quote unquote advantage but then gets disqualified for taking exogenous substances. Now, michael Phelps, you know like well, I forget exactly what his genetic mutation was, but it is something that is born of nature and so I just think it's a quite a simple conversation. I guess within this and the reality is is that there was an entire thing created over the last decade of if, let's say, this woman was transgender, then I think the left would be like, yeah, that's completely fine, or they would ignore it. So in a sense, I don't know if it's necessarily the same controversy.
Speaker 3:Well, it's definitely not the same controversy, except that people lied about this person said she was transgender. To try to fit it into the same controversy, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:I agree, I don't think that was responsible.
Speaker 3:I mean, here's a here's why it is related, though, because you're talking about you know, innate characteristics and where is the line that you're going to draw between the two genders? And so I don't know that anyone would argue. Maybe there's some person out there that would argue it, but I certainly wouldn't argue. I don't know anybody else on the left that would argue. It would be enough to just say, you know, oh, I feel like I'm a woman now and, you know, get to compete in female athletics. The conversation is about okay, is there a process by which, if you transition over a number of years and you are, you know, suppressing your testosterone levels and you, you know, it's been a certain period of time Is there a time period in which, okay, now it's all right for you to compete? Or is it just, if you went through puberty as a biological male, do you have too much of a competitive advantage to ever, you know, for it ever to be fair for you to compete against women? And I do think that that's a difficult, because it wouldn't be fair to just say, no, that's it, you just can't compete. Period, end of story, you're done Right.
Speaker 3:And on the other hand, I think that certain sports like, for example I think what was it?
Speaker 3:It was like a pool player or something who quit because she was up against a transgender woman. It's like this is your gender doesn't even confer any sort of advantage. So in certain sports, you know yes, I think that it's like boxing, I think, would be one of them where if you went through puberty as a biological male, you probably have advantages that even if you've been taking, you know, hormone suppression and medically transition for years, that you're not going to be able to just totally put in the in the background. But there are other sports where it may not make as much of a difference. Complicated question and also why it could vary sport by sport and why the fact that you have these natural, naturally occurring edge cases makes it really clear that it is not a black and white question, that sex, even you know, just naturally occurring differences, create these edge cases that actually, when you come down to it, makes it very difficult to draw that line of who goes in which category, etc.
Speaker 2:This is a yes but question. Yes, there are .00001 occurrences, people like this in which it will manifest in elite athletics. But the puberty conversation the data is incredibly clear. If you went through puberty as a biological male, then the natural differences that you have are immense. There has been tons of research on this. It doesn't matter if you've been on hormone blockers for five years. Just in terms of your muscle development, the amount of testosterone that you had that could contribute to growing larger, et
Speaker 2:cetera. A friend of mine, derek More Place, more Dates, has done extensive research on this and put out a lot of videos that are on the subject. You can go and watch them for yourself. So I really just think it's totally different, crystal. I mean we're talking here, I mean we're almost seeing this like well, just because there's a 0.001% edge case, that means that the modern phenomenon of transgenderism and trite ideology is somehow comparable. I don't think that's the case at all. And then that also I
Speaker 2:mean. When you say difficult question, then that also I mean. When you say difficult question, then that even raises the idea that you can put puberty blockers in a child and not allow them to go through puberty in their natural gender, which I think is frankly disgusting and abhorrent. I would personally be for banning it if I could. I don't know if the public would necessarily be on my side. I know that in Europe they've certainly gone in a different direction. So I don't think that this conversation is really related in any way to a natural phenomenon. And then the specific choice, frankly, by parents who are deciding to plug children and chemically castrate them with chemicals I mean that is just not even in the same league of conversation to me.
Speaker 3:So, to stick with the conversation about the athletics, I mean, the other thing I would say is just this has been made into like such a top political issue on the right and it hasn't succeeded in terms of, I think, on the public opinion it's succeeded. You know, if you poll people, majority will say yes. I don't think that transgender women should be able to participate in women's athletics, but there were a lot of candidates who really leaned into this topic in the midterms and it was not successful and so it was sort of dropped from the agenda. Now it's been picked up, you know, because of this debate about this Olympic women's boxing match. It's been picked up by JD Vance and Donald Trump, who very much do want to make it about transgender women, even though this woman is not transgender at all. So they've been using this rhetoric on the campaign trail. This is what do we have here? E3. Let's go ahead and run this thought. We think it's weird that the far left wants to allow biological males to beat the living crap out of women in boxing.
Speaker 3:I used to use the barbells. I said now all you have to do is look at the boxers. This young girl from Italy, a very, a champion boxer.
Speaker 1:She got hit so hard she didn't know what the hell hit her.
Speaker 3:It's a person that transitioned.
Speaker 1:He was a good he was a good mailboxer.
Speaker 3:He was a good mailboxer and she didn't even go down. He hit her with two jabs and she said I'm out. So, anyway, that's all. Just. That's a lie. She did not transition. She was not a gray male boxer. She was born a woman. She has competed as a woman.
Speaker 3:There is this question about the test. We don't know the details, but that is all a complete lie. So there's the political aspect of this. But, yeah, I'll just say, with regard to part of why I don't think the transgender sports debate has been the politically salient issue that Republicans at one point thought it would be, and why I take these two examples once again of, like them, sort of flailing around and not really knowing how to run against Kamala Harris at this point.
Speaker 3:In fact, I saw someone online who tweeted like Donald Trump is losing, so they had to make up that this boxer is transgender, that this boxer is transgender. But part of why I think that this has not been salient is because, like, look at the Olympics now you know Katie Ledecky is the dominant female swimmer. She's a woman. This looming threat of destroying female athletics, et cetera, et cetera, like it just hasn't come true.
Speaker 3:There have been a few cases, like Leah Thomas that I think have been, you know, nationally very sensational. Leah Thomas isn't at the Olympics, right? So as a salient issue that impacts people frequently in their lives, you've got states that are passing bans on transgender athletes that don't that have like one transgender athlete in their entire state. So I think it's a much greater threat to women's athletics, to the extent that any of these people actually care about that at all. Outside of like creating this culture war issue. I think the greater threat is stoking these online lynch mobs to judge women by their appearance and hold up whether or not they meet the standard that they think that they should look like and then smearing them internationally accordingly.
Speaker 2:Crystal. The reason Leah Thomas is not in the Olympics is apparently because she lost in the world aquatics governing in a court of arbitration that would have not allowed her to compete. So it's not that she wasn't, you know, wasn't competing against Katie Ledecky, it's because she legally was not allowed to compete in the Olympics. Katie would kick her ass, but anyway, Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3:She's got the top 20 fastest times in the 1,500 freestyle that have ever existed.
Speaker 2:Maybe she wouldn't. I think seeing her, him whatever up on the dais frankly is disgusting, and that is something that I deeply object to.
Speaker 2:Now on, the transgender point now the reason I don't think that it was politically salient is because it was in the context of abortion In a vacuum. As you said, polls dramatically agree that transgender athletes should not be allowed to compete in women's sports and in some governing bodies where they have been allowed to compete, you had the grotesque outcome of people like Leah Thomas and weightlifters and others that are competing against women. You've had athletes like Riley Gaines and others who have spoken out about this and, by the way, face significant social consequences as a result of that. Riley Gaines is a super star, yeah, after she quit, you know, and had to make this her now by the way, I don't recommend making this your whole identity.
Speaker 2:You know, there's a reason that I conduct myself the way that I do. But if forced to discuss, you know, certainly will. The vast majority of the American public agrees on this issue and by forcing people like Leah Thomas and others, you just frankly create this grotesque spectacle which sets back, as I have told my gay friends, the quote-unquote gay marriage polling numbers that we have seen within the GOP. Now abortion is always going to be a lot more salient issue. Now, after that's solved, maybe we can tackle the puberty debate and I think it's going to be very different on the polling and political salience with abortion off the table. But of course I mean there's a ton more women who exist in America, so it's going to be a lot more politically important. But in a vacuum I don't think it's nearly as unpopular as you're laying out.
Speaker 3:I didn't say it was unpopular, I'm just saying that people don't care that much yeah they don't care.
Speaker 2:Frankly, you shouldn't care that much. I don't particularly care that much.
Speaker 3:There's so few instances and that's what I'm trying to get at, sagar, is look at the Olympics, look at the female stars Sha'Carri Richardson, simone Biles, katie Ledecky, like. None of these people are threatened by transgender athletes. I there was. There's one. There is just to throw another wrinkle in this there actually is one self-identifying transgender male who is boxing but hasn't taken hormones or whatever and just changed their pronouns and is boxing as a woman. I think I'm getting these details right, but there's very few transgender athletes, even at the Olympics. So again, my point is not that this, you know, I actually think probably the most fair thing if you had sufficient numbers is I agree with you that I think if you go through puberty as a biological male, it does convert certain advantages that, even if you've been taking hormone suppressants for many years, are not going to just magically go away. I just object to this being such a fixation and focus and the demonization of this boxer or now, apparently, anyone who doesn't there's another boxer, by the way, who's in the same category anyone who doesn't fit this ideal. I just find that to be so gross and I do take it kind of personally, just because you know I'm a former athlete.
Speaker 3:I wasn't going to the Olympics, but I was a division one swimmer.
Speaker 3:I was a big part of my identity and, um, you know, when you are a high level athlete, oftentimes as a woman you do have some characteristics that are not traditionally feminine.
Speaker 3:If you look at the swimmers right really broad shoulders, flat chest because you're more aerodynamic big lats I've always been able to put on a lot more muscle than other women and so if you're creating a situation where now there are these like online lynch moms of people judging whether you're feminine enough, like they did to Kassar Semenya, duti Chand, amani Khalif, now, to me that's far more damaging to women's athletics than these. You know very few cases of transgender athletes that I also, like I said, I also have issues with and have questions about. But you know it's sort of they're, sort of killing the they're, they're doing more damage to the thing that they're claiming to protect. And I do wonder what you make of like the Trump comments where he just like lies about her. I mean, do you think that this is a smart political direction for Trump and JD Vance to go in, embracing this culture war question over?
Speaker 2:the Algerian doctrine. I don't think people will really care. I mean, the American people are on their side, regardless of whether this is true or not. If it was a transgender athlete, then yeah, I mean most people Look, it is not all that politically salient. Like I said, if forced to discuss, I'll lay out what I think is a pretty clear case of why this is gross. I don't think that is nearly as damaging. The left created a reality where women are literally, or men are literally allowed to compete in women's sports biological men. So then you can't get upset when people are like, hey, is this a biological man or not?
Speaker 3:and then when the information is there and you're just flat out lying.
Speaker 2:But if it was a biological man, people would say, oh, what a great celebration you, that this is an amazing outcome of transgender equality. It's like you can't simultaneously cheer on like bearded guys in dresses and then say like, oh, we shouldn't be able to criticize whatever like female aesthetics. I mean, this is a reality that was created literally by modern liberalism post Obergefell, which I think was a massive mistake. As we look at the political polling that has now happened on both on gay marriage and on the transgenderism issue. So I just certainly I almost feel frankly like gaslit on this bit on this conversation, because if you create an entire reality where everything is questionable and people ask questions, you can't get upset about that.
Speaker 3:But there was, it was readily apparent, it was readily available information that this is not a transgender person. How can I just don't think it's fair to just give a pass to these big accounts and JK Rowling and the freaking former president of the United States Like, well, it's not his fault because somebody else, you know, did something that he didn't like, once the facts exist out there. The facts exist out there, you are able to, you know, absorb them and read articles about what's going on and assess it accurately and have empathy for this person and not just go. The Italian boxer who, going back and reading her initial comments, I know a lot of people in you were saying you really blame her for sort of spraying. I don't know that that's really fair, because all she said is just like she'd never been hit that hard. She didn't say that Imani shouldn't be able to fight or she was a man or whatever. So I don't know if it's really fair to put it all on her.
Speaker 3:But in any case, um, we have a uh her final comments where she was talking about how she would actually uh, apologize to Amani. She says it wasn't something I intended to do. Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke. She she added, if she met Khalifa again she would embrace her. So in any case, just kind of a wild situation that really touched a cultural nerve and has now been embraced by the former president and the former president of the United States, in spite of the fact that some of the very basics of the situation have been nothing but lies and innuendo.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, let's see what the developments are. Maybe maybe a gender test. I believe that people are demanding she take a gender test, or so maybe we'll see. Perhaps we'll get the truth, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Does she?
Speaker 2:have? Did they have to pass a gender test to even compete in the IOC? This is where I'm confused. This governing body like what are the rules? What do they even say?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think that the Olympic committee, as best as I was able to understand, they don't conduct chromosomal tests and they so typically again, this is my layman's understanding of doing one day of research. Yes, typically, I believe, they allow these various sports governing bodies to sort of legislate themselves. So previously they had been relying on this International Boxing Association. However, it was legitimately a very sketchy organization and tied into the drug trade and Russian mobsters, whatever. It was kind of a mess. So they banned them from um, allying with them, and the Olympic committee themselves put together a temporary committee to adjudicate these types of questions. From my reading, it was not entirely clear to me what they based their assessments on. The thing that they said is that she was born a woman, she's, you know, a woman on her driver's license, woman on her passport, et cetera. And so I don't know if I I don't think that they have like a testosterone limit and I don't know that they conducted these same sort of uh, you know, potential chromosomal tests now in track and field um where Castor, somewhere this was relevant for Castor Semenya they decided that for certain events not all events, but for certain events high levels of testosterone were a sufficient advantage that they regulate. They set a maximum bar for what your testosterone levels can be, even if you're in all other respects, you know, present as a female.
Speaker 3:So Castrosemenya, in order to compete in some of her top events, was forced to take testosterone suppressants in order to be able to compete, and she's written about how it really. It made her really sick and she hated doing it and ultimately she stopped taking those testosterone suppressants. So different sports, it seems like, have different criteria and I guess one question I have for you is okay. So let's say that she does have DSD and she does have XY chromosome, even though she physically presented as a female. Do you think that she should compete as a woman or?
Speaker 2:not, I don't think so. I just think that the risk is too high for people in boxing. Whenever you're literally hitting somebody else in the head, that's a red line. I would switch it from track and field to anything where you could potentially harm somebody.
Speaker 3:I actually agree with that. But then I was thinking about if you reverse it. Let's say you have someone who presents as a male, it, let's say you have a someone who presents as a male, um, but who has? So they have, you know, the male bits externally, but they have xx chromosome. Do they get to compete as a female? Is that possible? I don't think. I I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I know that there are 30 different like my, elementary biology is starting to come back to like there are 30 different ways of being intersex, so is that one of them?
Speaker 3:I can't say I'm a hundred percent sure, but you know again, that's why I think it varies sport to sport. I think it's very difficult. I do. I tend to think. I disagree with the Castor Sabanian decision. I think her naturally high levels of testosterone. I think that's just a natural genetic advantage, in the same way that many athletes have natural genetic advantages and no one's getting hurt to your point. But I agree with your point that in fighting that's why you have different weight categories there's an added level of we need to protect these. You know individuals as much as we can and so, uh, you know an advantage, like if you have an elevated level of testosterone which is probably going to occur more often, like I bet if you tested a lot of these women competing in Olympic boxing, like they're probably at the high end of normal or beyond the high range of normal, because it is an advantage there. So you know, maybe you have, in addition to the weight classes, maybe you have like a high testosterone class, maybe that's the most fair thing to do here.
Speaker 2:I know, at least amongst men, there's like physiological doses and there's like super physiological. So somebody who is far more well-versed in hormones can.