The Pope, Trump, And The Fight Over Just War

A sitting U.S. president takes swings at an American Pope, and suddenly millions of people are asking a question that’s bigger than any news cycle: who gets to speak for Christianity when war, nationalism, and power are on the line? We sit down with Reverend James Martin to unpack the Pope Leo versus Trump and J.D. Vance drama, and why the “it’s all manufactured by the media” defense doesn’t match what people are seeing in public statements and political behavior.

We get into Catholic just war theory in plain language: last resort, proportionality, and the moral scandal of civilian suffering. We also push on the claim that God blesses one side of a conflict, and why Martin argues you can pray for troops while still praying for the people being bombed. From Iran to Gaza, the conversation keeps returning to a single word that keeps getting erased from modern politics: mercy.

Then we widen the lens to Christian nationalism and the weaponization of Christianity as identity and permission structure. We talk about how “us vs them” rhetoric collides with the gospels, how dehumanization shows up in the treatment of migrants and refugees, and why attacks on transgender people and Muslims should worry anyone who cares about pluralism and human dignity. Finally, we confront the Trump-as-Jesus comparisons head-on, and close with what it means to keep hope alive when hate starts sounding normal.

If this conversation challenges you, help it travel: subscribe, share the episode, and leave a review so more people can find it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:46

You reject all comparisons between Donald J. Trump and Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I reject comparisons between Jesus Christ and anyone. I think it's fine to pray for God's protection over troops, but you also have to pray for God's protection over people who are uh, you know, getting bombed.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

When you hear Pete Hexer saying, you know, we will fight against those who deserve no mercy. What's your reaction to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Shockingly unchristian. Everyone deserves mercy. But to say that people don't deserve mercy is as about unchristian as you can get. We're hearing a lot about Christian nationalism. It is in some cases being weaponized, I think. Uh it is being used to sort of justify violence. This is the opposite of Jesus' message. It's a kind of perversion of the gospels to say that there's an us and them.

Pope Leo Versus Trump Narrative

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Do you think Catholic voters in the US are turning against Trump because of recent developments? Hello everyone. Welcome to another Zateo Town Hall. We are talking about the Pope versus President Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance, or is there no versus? A lot of things I want to ask about this uh big row with the Catholic Church and this big debate over just war theory and the weaponization of Christianity. I thought who better talk to uh than Reverend James Martin, uh, who is very well connected in the Catholic Church, uh, and is also, I should add, author uh of the new book, New York Times Bestseller Work in Progress. Confessions of a Bus Boy, Dishwasher, Caddy, Usher, Factory Worker, Bank, Telecorporate, Tool, and Priest. What a title, Reverend Martin. What a title.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Well, thanks. Uh the title, the subtitle is a bit of an ad for the book. So thanks for reading the whole subtitle.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Happy to do it. Uh, we'll talk about the book in a moment. Just initially, first off, and and and we've got Zatea subscribers joining us in the chat slowly as we start. But what, you know, we've been told now that there's no row between the Pope and Donald Trump. The Pope made a statement saying I would I'm not out to criticize Donald Trump. J.D. Vance jumped on the statement and said, it's all manufactured by the media. Was this all manufactured by the media? There's no division, there's no difference of view.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Well, I think if there's a row, it's a kind of one-sided row. Uh the Pope, uh, excuse me, uh President Trump started off with that uh truth social post, uh, saying that the Pope was a woke Pope and didn't understand uh foreign policy and was soft on crime and whatnot. Uh, you know, for a little context, that same night there was an interview with three American cardinals uh on 60 Minutes, and he probably saw that the timing was pretty unusual, and they critiqued him for the war not being just. And so I think that probably set him off against the Pope.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, and just on the Pope, Pope Leo, American Pope, first American Pope from Chicago, uh, is seen as uh uh a progressive by the right. Um obviously succeeding Pope Francis, who was also seen as a lefty pope. Um is he a woke pope?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Uh no, I don't think that's the way to describe him. I think those left and right terms, and I understand what you mean, those are mostly political terms that are kind of imported uh into the church. Uh he's basically preaching the gospel. That's what he's doing. He's talking about caring for the stranger and the migrant and the poor and the sick and uh being against violence. So this these are these are gospel values, not political values. Is it fair to say that pretty much every Pope in the modern era has been anti-war? Yes, absolutely. Uh, you know, you go all the way back to uh John the XXIII with his uh encyclical Pachimenteris, Peace on Earth. Uh, you know, Pope John Paul II opposed the Iraq War, uh, Benedict is coming out against war. Yeah, I mean, the the line from John Paul is war is always a defeat for humanity. And they're not just against war, they're also, you know, uh trying to support those who are disproportionately affected by war, which would be the poor. Uh so yes, I think that's a fair statement.

What Popes Say About War

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Those of you just joining the chat in uh uh in the town hall, do please leave your questions in the Q ⁇ A. I will try and ask some of your questions about uh all of this uh to Reverend Martin in a moment. Um just focusing on the war issue. It's funny you mentioned John Paul II in Gulf War I. I mean, George H. W. Bush did not attack the Pope in response. And I think that's the key point here that popes have come out against previous American wars, illegal wars, horrible conflicts. But the reaction for the American Pope president has not been to lash out. Of course, we have a man child in the White House who only knows how to lash out. I mean, I don't think I've heard Donald Trump say a lot of hilariously weird things, but saying the Pope is weak on crime was one I will always remember. That was a bizarre thing to say. And then he said the Pope wants Iran to have nuclear weapons. When you hear stuff like that, okay, as a Catholic priest and an American citizen voter, what's your reaction? Well, you're right, it is bizarre.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Uh it's uh appalling on several levels. Uh, first of all, to attack someone who is as good and prayerful and kind as Robert Privost is, you know, just the human being, is is strange. To attack uh the head of the Catholic Church is someone who doesn't understand uh foreign affairs, uh, you know, I always like to remind people the Catholic Church has been dealing with political leaders and military leaders since at least the time of Charlemagne, right? So they understand foreign affairs pretty well. And third, you would think that he would um not want to offend uh the Catholic uh voter in the United States. So it's it's strange in many like many ways. And and Catholics that I spoke with, uh, from progressive to traditional found it really shocking.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Well, a majority of Catholic American voters voted for Donald Trump in 2024, as far as I'm aware. So uh there is an interesting uh you know fallout from that politically. Just sticking with the war issue, um is it you said earlier it's kind of one way. And clearly the abuse and the anger and the lashing out is one way. But clearly Pope Leo is doing a bit of politics here. This is not all just random homilies and prayers. I'll give you one example. I saw Pete Heggs do a press conference where he made his usual hawkish nonsense, you know, God bless America troops, kill them all, blah, blah, blah, and paraphrasing. And within moments, there was a tweet from Pope Leo saying God doesn't support war, doesn't pick a side. You're saying that's not a reaction to what he's hearing from the American government? He's not responding?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

I'm saying that he's not being political or a partisan. He's not saying Pete Hag Seth is wrong. Uh he's not saying vote Democrat or Republican.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Well he's clarifying, he's correcting the American government, saying God is not on your side or on the side of prosecuting this war.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

I don't know. I don't know what's going through uh Pope Leo's mind. I think also we have to remember that he's speaking very broadly. You know, he he may have been, I'm not sure. But uh he said in particular uh when he was uh you know being asked by this uh you know on the trip to Africa recently that you know a lot of these uh homilies and statements that were uh read by him in Cameroon and Equatorial Guinea and Angola had been you know had been written months beforehand. So he, you know, he's talking about war in general, and he's talking about those who would use God in God's name in general. Yeah, it must be in the back of his mind. But I I really tries hard not to be specific.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Okay. Well, you've been specific. You challenge Pete Hanksmith and others who have claimed that God is on our side basically in this war. God bless our troops. Uh, and you say it's making a false God in our image, a God who despises Iranians.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah, I think that's accurate. I mean, if you say God is on our side only, that means that God is by definition against the other person, right? I think it's fine to pray for God's protection over troops, but you also have to pray for God's protection over people who are uh, you know, getting bombed, right? So, you know, one theologian said a couple of years ago, I guess decades ago, the problem is not that God does not uh, you know, want to be on someone's side or support us. The problem is that we're compromised. And then when we say God is on our side, we are saying that God is blessing everything that we do. So I really object to those kinds of statements.

Just War Theory And Vance

SPEAKER_01 8:21

How much did you object to the vice president of the United States who's been Catholic for like six minutes, saying the Pope should be careful when he talks about theology and just war theory?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, I object a lot, but not because he's a recent convert. I mean, there are recent converts that are very wise and you know are learned and maybe have PhDs in theology and in just war theory. Uh, but to tell Robert Francis Privost, uh, who's been an Augustinian priest for his whole life, uh, that he doesn't understand the concept of just war that originated with St. Augustine. By the way, while uh Pop Leo was at the birthplace of St. Augustine, you know, in Hippo, uh, is really shocking. And also, this is someone who has a master's degree in divinity. He has a uh a doctorate in canon law from a pontifical university in Rome. This guy knows a lot of theology. So it was it was a very strange comment, no matter who said it.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

I mean, there's an arrogance to J.D. Vance that clearly came out in that thing. They're so used to lecturing the liberal media and lecturing the Democrats and telling everyone to mind what they say uh that they thought they could extend it to the Pope. Uh what do you make? I know you're not an expert on just war theory, but you're a you're a smart guy, you're very qualified, you're a Catholic priest, you know the Catholic Church, you know Pope Leo and where he's coming from. Is is the war in Iran a just war? Most people would say no.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

No, it's not. Uh there are certain regul uh sort of requirements for a just war. I'm not a, as you say, I'm not a moral theologian, but those are last resort, proportionate response, not injuring civilians. There's all sorts of things that are in the Catholic tradition. And you have people from Archbishop Timothy Brolio, who was the former head of the U.S. Bishops Conference, and also the head of what we call the military vicariate, meaning he's in charge of kind of pastoral care for soldiers, saying it's not a just war. He would probably be considered someone more traditional, to someone like uh the Archbishop of Washington, Cardinal McElroy, who is a doctorate in political science and theology, also saying it's not a just war. So, I mean, there's widespread um agreement in the Catholic Church in an unusually uh sort of capacious way that this is not a just war.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

In your view, when was the last time the United States fought a just war?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

I don't know. Again, I'm not a moral theologian. I'm I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Do you think uh just take an example, the war in Iraq is a classic unpopular war. That wasn't a just war either, was it? That was our last resort.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

I I'm gonna be clear. I I don't know enough about just war theory to make those kinds of decisions.

Audience Questions And Human Dignity

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Okay, let's take some questions from our uh audience who are sitting patient. One of our uh attendees says uh the hubris of people like J.D. Vance. Can you imagine if Kamala Harris had said something similar? I think that's a very fair point. Uh John Dill asks, uh, Reverend Munn, how do you view the current situation in Iran and Gaza through the Ignatian lens of finding God in all things?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Oh my gosh. Uh so for those who don't know, uh St. Ignatius Loyal was the founder of the Jesuits and Ignatian spirituality can be summarized by finding God in all things. You know, I would say that uh if we're finding God in all things, we have to find God in all people. And to find God in all people means to care for the welfare of people in Iran uh and in Gaza, as well as in Israel, as well as in the United States. So it's understanding the human dignity of all people. So I would say that's an Ignatian perspective.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Um Kevin Morford says there is a limited release of nations to use military force for self-defense, but it is subject to several restrictions, including proportionality, necessity. It is international law that is enforceable in the context of the use of military force and not Catholic just war doctrine. What can you tell us about the requirements of proportionality and necessity in Catholic just war doctrine?

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Oh my gosh. Uh very little because I'm not a moral theologian. I'll be blunt. That's not that's outside of my uh expertise.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Why do you think someone else asked, why does why do you why why why does why does this administration, sorry, I'm struggling with this, why go against Pope Leo in such a way when Pope Francis was much more strong and forceful in his anti-war, peep, pro-peace rhetoric, he was stronger in his criticism of immigration rhetoric from Trump as well. Good memory.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

I think because um most likely uh President Trump and Vice President Vance realize that Pope Leo can't be dismissed as someone who doesn't understand the United States, which you could do under Pope Francis, and was done under Pope Francis, and even under Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul, well, he doesn't understand the U.S. And so I think the and that any critique or perceived critiques of uh the war really stings them because they know that people look at him as someone who knows what he's talking about.

Christian Nationalism And Us Versus Them

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yes, and someone and one of our attendees says, is it because he's the first U.S. Pope? Is that why it's bothering them? Uh yeah, and I think that's I think you you're spot on there. Uh you saw Trump come out and say, I like his brother. He's a MAGA guy. Uh, and the poor brother of the Pope actually got doxed. I think he got swatted uh in the aftermath by MAGA voters, which is uh says a lot about where we are. Um just broaden it beyond the war. Where are we as a country right now in terms of Christianity in our public space and in politics right now? Because right now, I'm looking at a Republican Party which doesn't seem to practice much Christianity in terms of kind of the social-political tenants, but loves to talk about it, loves to talk about it as an identity, as a national identity. We're hearing a lot about Christian nationalism. Pete Hagstart's pastor, Doug Wilson, is doing a media tour right now, openly talking about Christian nationalism. What do you make of that? Do you worry about that?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Absolutely. Uh, it is in some cases being weaponized, I think. Uh, it is um being used to sort of justify violence, of course. And again, it it is used to being it is used to uh talk about us versus them, right? And not only us versus them in terms of who's Christian and who's not Christian, but us versus them in terms of who's American, who's not American, who's white, who's not, who's uh native born, who's not. So, and this is the opposite of Jesus' message. I mean, Jesus' message was uh reaching out to people on the margins, particularly those who feel uh excluded or ignored or persecuted. That this is who he's going out to. He's going out to people who are Roman Centauri, who are Samaritan women, who are uh you know, people with leprosy. So it's the opposite. It's a kind of perversion of the gospels to say that there's an us and them.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

When you talk about Jesus in that way, and I actually wrote a piece many years ago, maybe 15 years ago, about the lefty Jesus and talking about the overlap between socialist tenets and Christianity, which you know well. A lot of people, a lot of conservative Christians get very upset and say you're bringing kind of political ideology into the Bible, into the church. And then you, of course, you have the reality, which is Christianity is now, especially in America, owned by the right, is kind of monopolized by the right. And even though what you just described is very progressive, fighting poverty, standing with orphans and the poor, free health care, um, you d the left hasn't embraced Christianity in the same way.

unknown 15:14

That's just very important.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Well, and it depends which part of the left. I mean, you could talk about a lot of uh progressive Catholics and you know, people are in the Catholic worker, and um, you know, you look at all the uh bishops and particularly the U.S. Bishops Conference, who have been very strong uh in terms of migrants and refugees, I think they've done a great job. So so those are people, uh the Catholic leaders, the bishops, and I think the majority of Catholics in the United States, you know, who who would listen to them, who actually are being pretty progressive and are sort of siding with the poor and the migrants.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

So I think I think this, and I know you've written extensively about the LGBTQ issue. Do you think the gay rights and the abortion issue, the quote unquote social issues, the family values issues, quote unquote, kind of have come to just outweigh and overshadow the, let's call them, social justice issues, the fight against poverty, the fight against homelessness. Is there a tension there when it comes to the Catholic Church's relationship with the American public, with the American political system?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Well, I think the tension is that no one party can sort of fully um incorporate all the Catholic Church opposition, right? So it's it's for life uh from conception to natural death, right? So there's the question of abortion, which the re that which the Democratic Party does not uh agree with, I would say. There's the question of migrants and refugees, which the Republican Party, broadly speaking, doesn't agree with. So there's no one political definition.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

So um, you know, it is this, it is this sort of rock-ribbed um you know, focus on human dignity, you know, and that that is not encompassed by any one party, which is why I think it's wrong to sort of sometimes import some of these political definitions, Republican, Democrat, left, right, which I understand what people are talking about. Uh, and that's why sometimes, you know, uh the administration is in step with the Vatican and out of step with the Vatican.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Um on that note, Carl Bottner, one of our subscribers, asked, Do you think Catholic voters in the U.S. are turning against Trump because of recent developments?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I would I don't know about that in terms of polls. I I mean, you know, the Catholic vote is no longer a monolith, right? There's Catholics vote if you're a Catholic Republican, you vote Republican. If you're a Catholic Democrat, you vote Democrat, not what your bishop says. I do think, though, that this recent sort of spate of um, I would say disrespectful posts and comments has really shocked Catholics of all stripes. Right. I'm hearing it from progressives and traditionalists. And again, your your question earlier on, or one of your um commenters' questions, you know, why would he pick a fight with Catholics? I I think my sense was that he was just responding out of emotion, having seen that uh 60 minutes thing. Why would JD Vance do it is a is a is a different question. Uh because I don't think he was doing that out of emotion.

Trump As Jesus And Idolatry

SPEAKER_01 17:57

I think Donald Trump, you're right, is a very emotional, impetuous, reckless, narcissistic, thin-skinned individual. And JD Vance is a sycophant. Liking this video? Don't just watch. Hit like, share, and subscribe. And tap the bell so you never miss a video or live show. But if you want early access to exclusive content, then you have to head to zateo.com and subscribe now. You'll be supporting fearless, independent journalism. So I think that's probably the simplest explanation. Um one of our attendees asks, uh, what about Catholic Bishop Barron standing approvingly and smiling behind Trump as Paula White at the White House compared Trump to Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Um, I would say I'm not going to critique Bishop Barron, um, but um uh there were many people who found that surprising.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

And uh I assume I have to ask the question, please don't laugh. You reject all comparisons between Donald J. Trump and Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

I reject comparisons between Jesus Christ and anyone. Uh, you know, people have called it blasphemous, uh, that's sort of speaking ill against God's name. I think it's more idolatrous. The irony is the irony is, yeah, the irony is, you know, the first commandment is you shall not have no gods. You shall have no gods before me. And this this crowd who, you know, professes, you know, their religiosity is basically going against the first commandment, which is more than a little surprising.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

But it is a cult. I mean, the mega cult is, you know, building golden statues of Trump. And of course, why wouldn't Trump post a picture of himself as Jesus when Paula White, his evangelical faith advisor, this crazy lady is saying stuff like, You're like Jesus. I think she said in a video clip I saw the other day that disobeying Trump is like disobeying God. When you have those kind of people in your public space talking about Christianity, you can understand why some people are thinking, well, that section of the church that supports the GOP, that supports Trump, they're off.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

They're not. Well, I think there's intention here. For the Christian, you know, the model of Jesus and Jesus' life provides a template for our understanding of our lives. That's just all Christians, right? Life, death, resurrection, sacrifice. There are there are templates there, and Jesus is our model, you know, for all of us. The difficulty comes when we identify ourselves too much with Jesus. That we can say we follow Jesus, our lives are led in conformity with Jesus' teachings, but we're not Jesus, right? And that's the difficulty, and that's the line that was crossed. And that's the line that uh that that that line that was crossed, I think, offended many people, not just Catholics. And again, you saw even some of Presidents Trump's uh Christian supporters, you know, vocal Christian supporters say this is too far.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

But it's funny you say this is too far. I just find that rhetoric absurd because this is not the first time he's done this, right? Like some of us have longer memories. I know Americans have, you know, the memories of goldfish are eight seconds, but you go back to his first term and you know, remember holding the Bible upside down, going for that walkabout uh in the middle of all the rioting outside the White House, um, you know, not even touching the Bible during the inauguration, selling Bibles with his name on, trying to profit off of the Bible. Um, that was a bizarre thing he did as well. Um, so many things. He was asked about what his favorite verse of the Bible is, he couldn't name anything. Like going back, I think he said um uh I'm the king of the Jews and Lord of the world. He reposted some conspiracy theorist posts. He said a lot of stuff that should have upset Christians a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

That's accurate. It uh I'm surprised why more people are not put off uh by some of these idolatrous comments. I think that um, you know, I I can't get into people's minds, but my sense is they say, well, that's just who he is. We can't take him seriously. Um but again, it the the the the particularly the the image of him as Jesus, yeah, was was really shocking for a lot of people. It really crossed the line. And again, it's it's any way you look at it, it is idolatrous.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I remember a year ago when Pope Francis died, he put out an AI image of himself as the next Pope. Uh doing this kind of stuff. I I do want to ask a broader question. I'm sure many of our subscribers watching wonder this, especially those living abroad, and look at what's happening in the US. You have these conservative Christians, you have these Republicans who go on and on about Christianity defining their faith, their politics, their values. And yet this conservative Christian coalition has come behind Trump like no other Republican, not even Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush, actual churchgoers, uh, in Bush's case, especially, born again, couldn't command the kind of support that Trump does. And you look at Donald Trump, you know, a serial liar, a serial adulterer, on his third wife, cheated on her with a porn star, former casino owner. Um, this is the guy that Christians, conservative Christians in America, decided to make their hero, their leader? A lot of people around the world scratching their heads just don't understand it. How would you explain it to non Christians who ask you about this? I think that.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

But uh people are voting politically, you know, not religiously. I think what his political stance um are mean more for even Christians than his religious beliefs, basically. So I think they're voting a certain way in terms of migrants and refugees, the economy, um, you know, America first, those kinds of things. I don't think the religious issues are playing as much role as the political issues are. That's simply it.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Um there's a remarkable moment where the president of Iran uh put out a message last week expressing solidarity with the Pope, saying, we are insulted at how Donald Trump posted about Jesus because we love Jesus as Muslims, which we do as Muslims. Uh remarkable moment where the President of Iran is telling the Pope we support you against the American Christian president. Um we have an attendee who asks, with all the holy war talk coming from this administration and the authoritarian nature of it, do you think that Muslim Americans should worry that they eventually will be rounded up and incarcerated, like what happened to the Japanese in World War II?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

I'm not sure. I wonder if the population that that's happening to, you know, which is migrants and refugees, you know, aren't the ones that need to be worried. I sometimes worry about transgender people. Uh the the the language that's coming out. Let me ask you that. Do you worry uh about that happening to Muslims?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

U Unfortunately, yes, the normalization of Islamophobia by the Tommy Tubbervilles and the Randy Find and the kind of um Andy Ogles. You look at the, I think Taboville said last week, Islam's not a real religion. Like the rhetoric that's coming out from these people, and Randy Feind said if I had to choose between a Muslim and a dog, I would choose a dog. Like that normalization of Nazi-esque anti-Muslim rhetoric. And I and I see liberals and Democrats not speaking out loudly enough to condemn it, uh, which makes it even worse. Uh, I very I worry a lot as a Muslim father with two kids in America wondering what kind of country this would be. So I worry so much about Christian nationalism. It's why I tell Muslim friends of mine who love the Tucker Carlsons and Candace Owens of this and the NTGs of this world because they're anti-Israel right now. I try and remind them that their vision of America does not really feature us, right? Christian nationalists don't really want anyone who's not a Christian white person in this country, whether they're Muslim, Jewish, Hindu. We're all in the same non-Christian boat uh from the perspective of Christian nationalists. And, you know, I look at Pete Hexeth, he's got a tattoo not just of a Crusader cross and Deus Vault, but he's also got a tattoo in Arabic of Kafir, non-believer. And you just think, we Muslims are in the crossheads, very much so.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

I think what's going on, you know, I read a book uh a couple of years ago, many years ago, by Paul Fussel, uh, the social critic called Wartime. And one of the chapters is about the dehumanization of Japanese people, uh, you know, which led to their being uh interred in the camps, you know, in California and then in the West. And you see that over and over again. You see it with uh Tutsis and Hutu, right? Cockroaches, uh, you see it with uh Jews in Nazi Germany. And so what's been happening with particularly migrants and refugees, and then recently transgender people, is that they are portrayed as less than human, right? Early on, Donald Trump talked about migrants and refugees as animals, right? And so what happens is, I mean, as you know very well, you know, once you dehumanize people, you allow a violence against them because they're not human beings and they can be rounded up, they can be put into concentration camps. And so that's what's happening all over. So uh it's interesting you should say that I I wasn't as aware of the uh anti-Muslim comments. I'm more focused myself because of my work on uh anti-migrant, anti-refugee, and anti-transgender. But I think across the board, anytime you're dehumanizing people, and to bring it back to the topic at hand, this is anti-Christian, and this is certainly anti-Catholic. And one of the things that we hear of Pope Leo and Pope Francis and all the popes before him in the modern age talking about was this identity of each individual as a beloved child of God and someone with infinite human dignity. So that that's the main Catholic standpoint uh right now in terms of all these uh controversies.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

And just coming back full circle to the war, um, when you hear Pete Hanksha saying, you know, we will fight against those who deserve no mercy, what's your reaction to that?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Shockingly unchristian. Everyone deserves mercy. It is a complete perversion of the gospel. When Jesus sees people who are struggling, we hear uh, I know your your your your uh network is called setao, right? Uh it's a nice Greek word for to seek. Uh Jesus in the Greek Gospels are written in Greek, uh his splanknot is moved, his guts are moved. So in other words, and when we read in the English, his his his heart was moved with pity. What am I trying to say? He sees people who are struggling and he has mercy on them. That's everybody, right? So to say that people don't deserve mercy is as about unchristian as you could get.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

So just before we wrap up, I do want to ask about this this idea of mercy, because then going back to the the Republican Christian coalition, you make a very good point when you say people are voting politically. I I I interviewed um oh man, I'm forgetting his name, Jim Wallace. Pastor Jim Wallace a few years ago, uh very progressive Christian pastor, and he made a very good point when people say evangelicals, and he taught me something that I've tried to stick to since. We talk loosely about evangelical support for Trump. He said it's white evangelical support for Trump. He said Latino and black evangelicals don't support Trump. And he said the point being is it's not the evangelical part that's supporting Trump, it's the white part. Race is a bigger factor than religion when it comes to some of these identity politics. Uh similarly, as you pointed out with the political positions on migration, et cetera. But even if I concede all of that, ultimately, though, these people who are supporting Trump, whether it's in Texas or wherever you want to go, Georgia, Alabama, they are church-going folks. They read the Bible, they know who Jesus is. And yet they can support such a vicious politics, one that, as you say, dehumanizes migrants, uh, has children being pulled from their parents, has uh, you know, grandmothers being put in ice detention facilities. How do you rationalize that as a Christian? I'm sure there must be, I know you're that's not your natural flock, but you must have come across such people in your lifetime. How do you engage with fellow Christians who take such an un-Christian, un-Jesus-like view?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Well, I mean, there are Christians and there are Christians. Uh, I mean, there's uh there's a great line from the Gospels where Jesus says, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of God, but only those who do the will of my Father. So you can say we're Christian, but if you're not walking the walk and you're just talking the talk, then what does it really mean? So if you go to church, wonderful. I mean, they're church-growing people, that's wonderful. I'm a church-growing person too. But if you're not reaching out to those on the margins, if you're not forgiving, I mean, the larger issues of the law, being merciful, being compassionate, what are you doing? Again, that that that great line, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, enters the reign of God. Not everyone who says, in a sense, I am Christian, is really sort of acting that way. So that's that's look, that's always been the case.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

But do you think it's worse than that? I think there's like a vicious streak in MAGA republicans. Let me give you an example for one of our subscribers. Iram Wine reminds us, while not Catholic, Pete Heggs pastor uh said to James Tallerico, said James Talarico, the uh Senate Democrat candidate in Texas, who himself is a very open Christian, he said he should die, he should be crucified with Christ. Uh, shouldn't religious leaders, says Iram, of all domination, uh all dominomination, say God can't be used to justify killing innocent people. And this is insane rhetoric. Calling for the death of a democratic Senate candidate by a Christian pastor?

SPEAKER_00 31:57

It is, and I think you're right. I think it is getting worse. I think uh in the last couple of years, it's been uh hate has been normalized. It's okay to hate people, and uh it is shopping to me. But again, you know, this has been the case since the beginning of the church.

Keeping Hope Alive Through Resurrection

SPEAKER_01 32:11

So Donald Trump is in a war in Iran. His uh ICE agents are still pulling people off the streets all over the country, detaining them in horrific conditions. Um a lot of people are losing hope. And I ask a lot of guests about how they keep hope alive. I ask a lot of non-religious secular guests. Uh, it's a great opportunity to ask a man of faith. Um when people say to you, in these dark times, you just talked about the attacks on migrants and minorities, how do you keep hope alive?

SPEAKER_00 32:39

By focusing on the resurrection, by remembering that uh, you know, on Good Friday and Holy Saturday, the disciples were uh cowering behind closed doors because they thought nothing could change. And Easter Sunday shows us everything changes. Love is stronger than hate, uh, you know, uh hope is stronger than despair, nothing's impossible with God. And for a more uh sort of um contemporary look at that, we say, well, nothing can ever change. You know, we have uh Pope Francis, you know, who changed the church, and we have our first American Pope. So I look at, you know, the fact that God can do anything and as a way of uh holding on to hope.

James Martin’s Memoir And Closing

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And our first American Pope, I should point out, has 84% approval rating, according to Peer. He's one of the most popular public figures in the world right now, including in the US. I think that's the real reason Trump picked a fight with him, because he can't stand anyone being more popular than him. Uh, before I let you go, uh I did mention the book, Work in Progress. It came out recently. It's a New York Times bestseller. It's a memoir. What is the message you're trying to tell in your memoir to the American public?

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Yeah, it's a story of my finding uh work with some crazy summer jobs growing up in the 60s and 70s, and then later on finding God as a Jesuit priest. I worked for GE for a while. Uh, and basically the the message is that God can work in anybody's life, whether you're a busboy, dishwasher, caddy, uh corporate executive, or even a Jesuit priest. So it's a kind of uh light hearted spiritual memoir.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I urge everyone to get a copy. Uh, Reverend James Martin, thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Thank you.