How Lazy Labels Fuel Tribalism And Bad Debates

The fastest way to start a pointless fight is to speak in tribes. When we say “Muslims believe,” “immigrants do,” or “the West is under attack,” we’re usually not describing reality, we’re advertising a shortcut our brain wants to take. I break down why that lazy language is so tempting, how it fuels tribalism, and what moral psychology can teach us about asking better questions before we pick a side.

Then we run a debate clip that perfectly captures modern discourse: the conversation leaps from “Britain is being destroyed” to London crime, to Brexit and the EU, and then straight into the loaded question “Can Muslims coexist with the West?” We pause on the moments where definitions go missing and the goalposts move, because that’s where bad arguments are made. Along the way we touch UK economics and austerity, immigration as an economic force, and what the crime numbers actually get used to imply.

From there, the debate turns to refugees and the uncomfortable context behind the headlines: Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and how war, sanctions, and long-term instability shape migration. Context doesn’t excuse everything, but it does explain why trust breaks, why “just fix it” is not a serious policy answer, and why comparing countries without comparing their history is a setup for propaganda.

We close on purpose with something constructive: a Harvard commencement message that lands like a blueprint for how to disagree without dehumanizing. If you want better conversations about religion, immigration, politics, and identity, start here. Subscribe, share this with someone you argue with, and leave a review with the one label you’re done hearing misused.

Transcript

Welcome And Format Reset

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Darrow McLean Show. I am your host, Darrow McLean, independent media that will not reinforce tribalism. We have one planet, nobody is leaving. And now let us raise it together. So I'm gonna change the format a bit, which I had already done. I just didn't make any announcements. Which is why sometimes you see these nice little shorts. Sometimes the shows are long, sometimes it's about God, sometimes it's about Iran, sometimes it's about philosophy, sometimes it's about psychology, etc. etc. This specific thing that you're about to see is a short because there is um a lot of things that goes on go on in countries, and which is we play this little game where because we are a melting pot in America, which I believe is a great thing. I actually believe being a melting pot is a if is a great thing everywhere. Um but that's a whole other story. Um we'll talk about that on another. But when that because you're a melting pot, you tend to go towards

Melting Pot And Tribalism

SPEAKER_01 1:23

people who are like you. And that is the lonely step of an origin called tribalism. It's not that people do it on purpose, it's that you seek what you are, similar, seek same. That's one of the things we say a lot in behavioral psychology. And so because I'm not just somebody who talks about the news, I'm somebody who's interested in the news, but my certifications that I hold are not in journalism. They're actually in social science, they're in moral psychology, they're in religious traditions, uh, moral theology. There's a uh state of me um in college for criminal justice studies, and so uh and I am a hodgepodge of different ideas, thoughts, and streams. I did not go to school for any financial uh courses, but I I love watching CSNBC, et cetera, et cetera. And I have a certification and and counseling for finances, and that's just something that I recently got to be uh more flexible. So that all that being on the table, we sometimes similar saying knowing that is what I was talking about. When we boil into the melting pot, we will say, Well, Muslims believe this, and Baba Baba believes that. It's just like it is a lazy language way to think. Because the correct way to say that sentence would actually be, I have a Muslim friend, and he said that they believe X, Y, and Z. That gives you some wiggle room because if you know anything about culture, religion, sex, politics, etc., you don't know what people really believe because everybody believes something different. Now, we all know that that may be true, but the way our language

Why Group Labels Distort Beliefs

SPEAKER_01 3:38

we speak is very lazy. So we don't say Methodists believe this, we will say Christians, right? So there was a famous podcaster by the name of Patrick Bent David. I am not a fan, but I understand um the appeal. Now, the funny thing is I do love the show because he allows everybody to be on diverging speeches. I'm not a fan of him because you'll see uh why in this clip. So then this clip that is about to happen, um, and this is gonna be a short, it's only gonna be about 10 minutes, but he's actually on with another Muslim, and he's a Muslim, and listen to how they they disagree. And I want this to

Setting Up A Debate Clip

SPEAKER_01 4:35

be very rich about assuming what we know versus what's actually a fact. I hope you enjoyed.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Muslims can coexist with the West. I'm curious. I'm curious. We went from Britain's being destroyed to London Crown to EU to Muslims. I'm curious. Okay, we got to. Tell me where you're with this. I'm Muslim. I think they can coexist. Do you think I can coexist with Muslims? I think you can coexist. Why me? I grew up in the UK, right-wing media has been telling these stories all my life. All I've all my life, all I've seen is black people and Muslim people on the front page. Have you looked at the front pages of the Daily Mail, the Daily Express? What do you mean the UK is destroyed? You think your kids are doing good? Yeah. I mean, no, but not for the reasons you think. Why do you think you so why do you think your kids are not doing good? I think economically is doing very badly. It had very wide leadership for the last 15 years. I was there, I the the conservative government that came in in 2010 did an austerity program after the financial crisis. You put Cameron as a David Cameron and George Osborne did an austerity program

UK Decline Claims Meet Data

SPEAKER_02 5:34

that basically gutted the British state, gutted our competitiveness, didn't cut the deficits, actually ruined our uh fiscal credibility, downgraded our credit rating, destroyed our growth over the course of a decade, undermined our health service. Do you put anything tied to immigration to that? No. None. Immigration's been a boost for the British economy. In fact, cutting immigration is back. Look at Brexit. Brexit's been a disaster for the British economy. Do you know how many people in Britain want to rejoin the EU? A majority. Pull that up. The majority of Britons want to go back into the EU. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is, Patrick? Do you think Why do you think Britains want to go back into the EU? You just said Britain's being disappointed. But have you looked at rejoin the. Have you looked at the crime numbers, what's going on in the UK? Crime is very low. Have you looked at what crime is very low, Patrick? So let me ask you. Do you know what the crime rate in London is? Did you see the tweet that you're talking about? You're not a fan of Sadek Khan. You're not a fan of my good friend Sadik Khan, are you? What EU did you saw the uh uh uh tweet that came out, what you were saying they're doing, that they want to find a way to get rid of illegal immigrants? Okay, you're jumping around, Patrick. Britain is not in the EU. We're talking about Britain. You just said Britain's being destroyed, which is nonsense. And then you said crime rate. Have you looked at the London crime rates? Last year, London had its lowest per capita murder rate since records began, had the lowest volume of homicides for 30 years under Sadiq Khan, third-term mayor, who people in America, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, get very worked up about. I don't know if you guys get worked up about him, been a very successful mayor, and crime has come down by record numbers. Violent crime and murder. When you're looking at EU, do you know which country in the EU has the lowest rate of the market? Talk about the UK back. Stay with UK to stay with UK. To me, I'll put them somewhat together. They left at the end. By the way, so you're saying immigration coming from all these countries has been a successful project for the EU. Uh, what's your definition of success? Many different ways. Economically, the EU desperately needs migrants. Have you seen the age rate pull up? The demographic. Okay, so it's a dying continent with a very low birth rate, is Elon Musk. Why not? So when you think they got no one there to work, to pay taxes, to look after the elderly, to run the health services, et cetera. Maybe the one argument I'll go to to see what you'll say about this. Do you think the West, when it comes on to West, Muslims can coexist with the West? I'm curious. I'm curious. We went from Britain's being destroyed to London crime to EU to Muslims. I'm curious. Okay, we got to what me where you are with this. Do you think they can Muslims? Do you think they can coexist? Do you think I can coexist with the Muslims? I think you can coexist. Why me? Educated, you're you're a worker, you're now a capitalist, you're contributing, you're creating jobs. Um I would say you're a net positive. Do you not think most Muslims do that? Uh I don't think uh, depending on where they're coming from, they don't, because if their countries did a good job, why would they leave it?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Now let me answer this question. And let but um but I want to also do something. What is personal is universal. Now, the the context is these people are both Muslims. One of them is a conservative who believes in capitalism, one of them believes in capitalism, but he does not worship it. And you see how there's a difference between what Muslims actually believe, and but one of them is educated enough to where he's holding the other one's feet to the fire by making him be specific with his language. My Muslims, what are you saying? That's a lazy term. Lazy terms

Defining Muslims And Coexistence

SPEAKER_01 8:57

for lazy people create populist uprisings because you branch all these people into one group as if they are all the same, without thinking about well, guess what? I want you to think about something very simple. We are all the same. Period. If you believe in science, then the atheist professor Lord Cross said humans came from stardust. If you believe in the Bible, the Christian Bible says we came from dust, which means what there is no difference. Why can't Muslims coexist? I don't know. Why can't Christians coexist? Why can't gay people coexist? Why can't black people coexist? Why can't white people coexist? What is the most personal is universal. So when you actually have somebody ask you a question like that, I'm from the South. I have a very specific type of debate style, which is I answer questions with the questions at times, and other times, you know, I switch it up based on the audience. Make people think about the laziness and the context of the question. So the way I would have said it, why are Muslims, blah, blah, blah, why can't Muslims coexist? I would say, What do you mean by Muslims? What evidence do you have that Muslims can't coexist? And then I would have made him dig into it and I would say, and that's very different than this, da-da-da, and Ireland, and and I I kind of try to see what they think first. And but I just uh want you to think about it when you're in conversations with people. Um back to the clip.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

War that we caused? War that who caused? That we caused. So they're leaving because of us. Well, let you know the use you know the big controversy in the UK over the boats, the small boats getting across the Channel. Do you know what the top three nationalities are in those boats? Tell me. Iran, number one, Afghanistan number two, Iraq number three. Now, so Iran is a current war. Let's park Iran. But are you telling me we're not responsible for the mess of Afghanistan in Iraq? Come on. When you look at this, let me show you this, Rob. Can you pull this up? When it comes down to uh um let me see which one I got here. I love Rump bringing up these numbers. I love it brings this up. I know you'll like numbers. No, I love it. I love being proved right as well as for my ego. No, no, no, no. Per capita. Per capita. When you look at the countries, Rob, I think you got it. Gulf states, how they perform per capita versus some of the other

Refugee Boats And War Origins

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Muslim nations. Look at this one here. Because they got oil and gas. You think it's only oil and gas that's causing them? You don't even think did you know what these countries are like? Let me ask you questions. Iran has plenty of oil. And they're not in Europe. Maybe it's got oil. Can I answer your question? But this isn't this this has been going on for a minute. This is not a one-year thing. Can I answer your question? Sure. Why do you think Iran's not doing well economically? Should I go through the list? You're gonna say sanctions. You're gonna say you're gonna say it's America's fault. Not just America's fault. So how come Iran? Pali, hold on, hold on. How much okay, you left Iran during the Iran or war, right? Is that I left Iran uh after Khomeini died, six weeks after Khomeini died. Okay, so Iran Iraq was behind. So Iran 1589. So Iran Iraq was done. Iran and Iran was 1980 to 1980. 600 billion dollars of damage done to Iranian infrastructure, the economy, the cost of that war. That was a war that's not saying that. Oh, you put it on Saddam? Who's who the fuck do you think is? So who invaded? So by the way, hold on, hold on. You don't put that on IRGC? No, I put it on the on the country that invades the other country. That's how the world works. I blame Russia for the Ukraine war. They invaded the world. Why does Saddam Hussein? Are you are you pre-Saddam? No, no, no, no, no. Why does Iran have a hard time getting along with other people? That's what I said. I said there was an Iran-Iraq war. You said, is America to blame? I said, yes, we backed Saddam Hussein. Did we not back Saddam Hussein? Did Donald Rumsfeld not fly and hug? You can pick up a Rob can bring up a video with Donald Rumsfeld hugging Saddam Hussein in 1983 in Baghdad. Were we not supporting the Iraqi invasion of Iran that cost Iran a million lives? $600 billion again for closure damage. You're saying that didn't play any role in Iran's economic future. Why don't they answer my question? No, but you don't understand what I'm saying. No, no, but many, let me let me ask you to acknowledge. No, but but look, let's give credit to, for instance, when Mamdani goes to the White House, you and I both give credit to both of them for being diplomatic. Okay. Right? Yeah. Do you think Iranian leadership with the IRGC is diplomatic? No. They've been horrific in their leadership. I think they've made again, they've given themselves a stick they've given their opponents a stick with which to be. I was a big critic of Ahmedinejad back in the day. So it's a dumb thing. So do you think Khomeini was good for Iran? Do I think Khomeini was good? Do you think Khomeini was good for Iran? No, in hindsight, of course not. If you look at the records, then we're on the quote. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to- I'm not I've said this before, I went on Piers Morgan show. Just to be clear, for people who don't know, I'm Shia. I'm a Shia. I know you're a Shia, which is the majority religion in Iran. Sure. Right? So I do, but there are two types of Shias. This is very crude. I'm trying to explain to you what it is. Religiously, theologically, politically, there's two types of Shias. There are those who believe in what's called Vila'i Faqih, WF. They believe that Khomeini, this was a political theory, a religious religious theory pushed by Ayatullah Khomeini that said that the clerics, the ayatullahs, the mullahs, whatever you want to call them, they should rule. Power should be with them. That is the model that Iran has followed. There is another school of thought that comes out of Iraq, mainly out of a city called Najif, and Ayatollah called Sistani, who is the leading Shia Ayatollah in Iraq today. And they say, no, no, we are all for religion. We're all, you know, we we want everyone to practice Islam, Shia Islam, but we're not going to rule. After the Americans toppled Saddam, Ayatullah Sistani did not do of Khomeini. He did not say, I'm going to become supreme leader of Iraq. He said, Have elections, democracy, vote. I'm going to stay in my house and I'm going to give you advice, religious advice when you need it. I follow the Ayatullah Sistani view of the world, crudely put. I don't follow the Ayatullah Khomeini view of the world. So when you say to me, Was he good for Iran, as a governmental system? No, I don't support the governing system of Iran the way it is. But but you're changing the subject. You're avoiding the you are. I'm not. There was an eight-year war.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

We were talking about Iran. He definitely is. This is one of the most frustrating things that I about me when I am somebody asks me a question, let's say about banking, and then I start to answer the question, and then you rabbit trail about, well, the operations, then I start to get that. And you ask me a question about, well, how about the swimming pool? I I somewhat give up all the conversation. Like, look, if you want to talk about banking, let's stick to one specific topic. The bouncing back and forth is fine. I know that's the way humans do it normally when they don't they they're not strained debaters like I happen to to have been. So I I understand that I have to tolerate it, but I will

Calling Out Debate Rabbit Trails

SPEAKER_01 15:56

say it is it does make having an actual conversation very frustrating. Um and then we can obviously we can all see the tape that he's he is bouncing. But it it's like in real time when you call somebody out, it's frustrating when they don't acknowledge what they just did. Um back to the debate. We live there.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Trust me, I lived there. I I I witnessed it. You should and you should entertain the idea of living in a Muslim majority country, see what it's like. I understand. You live there. You're jumping around. I'm not what I'm what you can say about Iran. I'll let you finish your thought, and then I'll go back to my question that I had. Finish your thought. Well, it doesn't, it's a thought that requires a response from you, which is if there's an eight-year war that Iraq started and we supported $600 billion to Iran, that took out a million members of their population, and then was followed by crazy sanctions. Are you telling me then that it's fair to compare that economy with Abu Dhabi? Are you seriously telling me that's a fair question? Can you go back and go back to that chart again, Rob, for me? So you just defended Iraq, right? That we backed up Iraq. Yes, I went against Iran. Yeah. How come they're not on the top GDP per capita on this list?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Now, this is this is how these arguments are done. And I'll say I'm gonna say this as something personal. This is why when white people talk to black people about slavery, we we it's a it's a very difficult conversation, but we have to learn to tolerate them. Because you think that being stolen from the land and uh getting 350 or so years of free, is remember, I'm not talking about after their levered lose revolution. I'm talking about before that. So revolution is what 1776 before that, what was already happening. So I don't start the clock, well, America was founded in the nope. When then when was the colony and and that's when the time

Slavery Analogy And Stolen Wealth

SPEAKER_01 17:54

when was the when was the first person ever set foot here? And then think about how long it takes as an economic model to actually lay roots. I'll tell you, I can do the simple math for you $30,000 a year times 10. How much is that? That's an easy one. Okay. If I know that somebody has been stolen and 10 years of wealth was it'll be $30,000 a year, which is only $15 an hour, would be $300,000. And I gave them nothing, why it is ear it is illusory, idiocy to ask, like, well, when are they gonna help? When are they gonna fix it? I don't know. Maybe if you actually gave them everything that they deserved. And and so they d they want to people don't just kind of pick themselves up by their bootstraps. When I'm like, well, it's kind of easy to say when you've stolen all the boots. When you got all the resources, when when you started off with with on on first base, and I started off not even not even in the stadium, not even in the country, not even learning the game. And so and then they will say things, and this is a different topic now. Uh well people who forget history are bound to repeat it, and at the same breath say, What are you guys gonna get over today? And so it's like if you would like me to take you seriously, give me a goalpost, and then stop moving it. You and then and it's frustrating to me only because you see us do the same thing over and over again. You support a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussein, destroy for several years, and then you take him down, and then oh yes, Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator. Yes, and leave out all the context while he was our ally, with our permission, under our watch, letting us know, giving him the bombs, etc. etc. And because they know for a fact Americans do not actually study military history, they know they're gonna get away with it. And so then you get somebody factual that will actually tell you, well, it actually started in 1952. They say, Oh, you're just making excuses for them. No. But knowing why a situation happened does not justify the response, it explains

Foreign Policy Context Builds Distrust

SPEAKER_01 20:46

why they feel that they you should not be trusted. What actually happens is imagine if somebody raped your wife or you and then came over and said, Well, now I'm saved now, and so you just you need to just get over it. That would be a stupid argument. And that's how it it feels sometimes when people ask you questions that if they actually seriously thought about it, if they were on the other end of that, it would be easy to figure out what is personal is actually universal, but that's not how people engage in debates. They want to win the debate and not actually understand things.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Do you know what happened to Iraq after Iran or also? Now you have another reason. It's America's fault again. Uh I mean, do you study history about it? Do you know what happened in 1990? We did a Gulf. No, the Gulf I invaded Vidal. So on one end, wow, you're not on one end, you're saying this, on the other, and say, no, it's because it's not comparing countries. You're showing me a graph, comparing countries that have never been bombed, invaded, or occupied with countries that Have been bombed, invaded, occupied, and then you say, why is the GP but trying to hire in one, not the other? That's an insane embarrassment. Why have they made so much progress? Why? They're a Muslim majority. Yeah. Okay, why have they done made so much progress? I mean, but by the way, at this point, just so you know, the argument is now not about Muslims.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

No, no, but now listen, if he'd actually thought about what Medi said before responding, he already knows the answer to the question. His big his first question was: why can't Muslims coexist? When he already knows he's lying. Because Muslims ex coexist in the UAE, they coexist in Kuwait, they coexist in in Saudi Arabia, they coexist in Bahrain, they coexist in Qatar, they coexist in the United Air Emirates, they coexist all over the world. I can keep going. They coexist in Qatar. This is just off the top of my head. His his own knowledge of capitalism knows they coexist. They coexist because they do everything America wants them to do, and then America then does not bomb in this memory. And then so they don't and that's the answer. If America treated all Muslim countries exactly like they treated Bahrain, Qatar, etc., Muslims would coexist. There would be no war. But America has allies that will land in certain places, and so it's very easy to figure out. The Turkish people and the Kurdish people don't get along. Some of the Swedish people I've met are Kurdish people in Kurdistan. They've helped us time after time after time at the time, and we turn their backs back to them time after time at the time at the time. Literally, so we can get a deal with another ally, and let them come and get slaughtered, and then say, Oh, what are you gonna help us again? It's like, look, if you if you fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on me as well. And that's how I feel about it. Because and I know that's not how the the quote's supposed to go, but I'm like, look, I am a human being. Which means I know how human beings think. I know human beings desire. I know the uh the depravity of our hearts, I know our good intentions, but I guess this, so I need to to say some ancient wisdom here, being that I'm, you know, oh 40 years old now, status, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So answering this question is actually fairly easy if you actually want to know the answer.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

No, but the argument is why are some winning, some are not. And I think war plays a big role in it. Well, it may a part of it. I just pointed out to you the three biggest refugee groups on the boats going into England are Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan. Coincidence? No, those are war-torn countries. I'm not disputing that. What I'm trying to tell you is even with that, if you sit here and say every single time everything is America's fault, what what responsibility do they take? Do they take any responsibility? No, no, no. I mean, just to be clear, people can rewind out. Rub Rob does screenshots, but people on watching on YouTube can rewind. Never did I say it's all America's fault. I've never said that. I'm very c have you read you said you've read my stuff. You've seen my stuff. I've seen your stuff. I'm very critical of Muslim majority countries. I am very critical of the Iranian government, I'm very critical of the Saudi government, I'm

Responsibility Versus Blame Argument

SPEAKER_02 25:34

very critical of the government. What's feedback? What do you think I can do? I do a show for Al Jazeera and I grill the Qatari foreign minister on that show about the lack of democracy. I've seen your stuff. I'm critical of Emirat governments, Muslim governments, Pakistan. Do you think do you think the Middle East is a safer place with IRGC in charge of running America or somebody like the Pasishka? I'm more of a moderate. I would like to see. And again, who undermined the moderates in Iran?

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Sorry, it's gonna be the I'll So anyway, I'm actually gonna for the debate segment post that show in its entirety, but um you can kind of see sometimes when a real argument is being had and when it's not, and right back more than a real shit. share with you is actually my grandfather's group. Uh, he passed away, I wanna say four years ago now, and that was his group called the Hall of Fame. I'm gonna end the show on a positive note today, but uh, because there's enough negativity going around that I don't uh wanna end the show all the time, which is the most awful thing on the planet. There's some beautiful uh people still in this country, even though we uh sometimes because of the way the media um makes money, which is there's a there's a term in journalism that completely leads. That's just um the quality of being in a country that uh only

Choosing Hope Over Rage Media

SPEAKER_01 31:03

provides itself with money. A lot of news pundits uh they have to chase the chase the story, so they they rage make you into always watching them by getting you to talk about things that don't matter. But there's there's a lot of successful things that happened when I was on break. One of those things that I really, really love is is when people succeed with something. Graduate from middle school, high school, college, uh, etc. That tells me the country has a bright future. And I want you to be I want us to always remember that. America has been at worse places than it is now, and it will get through. I'm telling you, it will get good. Rome was big before construction, it still exists. And where every country evolves is something else. I do not believe that the worst days of America were home. I think we had to really get through this half time to see it's actually worked a lot better when we worked together. And so this is gonna be a commitment speech that a college student gave about unity. And I just want you guys to know if you really needed to hear it today, I love you, and thank you for tuning in to the Roma Play Show.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

My life begins with something that could be the start of a joke. And it goes like this a Christian, a Muslim, and a Jew walk into a bar. I know historically the setup is a little bit dicey, but this time, this time was a little bit different. This time, the Christian married the Muslim and had a daughter, that daughter grew up Christian and talked about the Jew, converted to Judaism, married the Jew, and had a son. Twenty-two years later, that son is standing here with all of you graduating from Harvard University.

Harvard Story On Mixed Faith Family

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I'm a proud Jew. I'm also the proud grandson of a Christian and the proud grandson of a Muslim. But that isn't a contradiction in any sense of the word. It's proof of a concept. And that concept is what I want to talk to you all about today. Because my family taught me something I think this world could really use right now, which is that the counter to division isn't necessarily agreement, it's understanding. Our world today, all the way from the global stage to right here at Harvard, has been split into two sides. There are two sides to every story, of course. Only two sides, two sides to every conflict, argument, disagreement, good and bad, give and take, right and left, progressive and conservative, capitalist and communist, oppressed and oppressed, rich and poor, US and China, US and Russia, Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Palestine, Israel and Iran, US and Iran, US and Israel in Iran. All in binaries. At least they're presented to us in terms of binaries. Here's this issue. What do you think? What's not you want? Come on, where do you stand? Who do you stand with? In my family, well, my family wouldn't exist with that kind of approach. My grandfather's one Pakistani Muslim who grew up in the middle of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947, the other, a Jewish refugee of the Holocaust, met many times over the course of their lives. As you might imagine, they disagreed on a great many things. And yet, one of the main memories I have of them growing up was seeing them sitting together at a coffee table, discussing everything under the sun. And when they weren't in close proximity, I remember hearing their voices on the phone as they called my parents, always remembering at the end of each call to ask about the other. What were they doing? What were they up to? Of course, there are many differences that they never resolved. But still, they acknowledged each other, they cared for each other, they stayed in contact and they debated with each other. Their vast disparity in life experience, viewpoints, ideology, faith, and beliefs, a point of contention, yes, but not the point of division. And yet, somewhere between their generation and ours, something in the conversation shifted. The debates got louder, the noise got louder, the listening stopped, it got harder. On the news, on your timeline, at the dinner table, people speaking without listening, people arguing having already decided their own allegiances, people debating not to listen, understand, or to learn, but to win, to humiliate, to be right. And somewhere along the way, the person sitting across the table stopped being a person and became an obstacle. Now, some would say that there are in fact people in this world for whom understanding is neither owed nor even worth the attempt. People whose very irredeemable

Understanding Beats Agreement

SPEAKER_00 36:40

actions or beliefs place them beyond the reach of dialogue, people who indeed have become nothing more than obstacles to the greater good. And maybe that's true. Well, my grandfathers survived the atrocities of war and worse. And they knew better than anyone that people can do monstrous things. They also knew the most terrifying fact of all, which that those people doing those monstrous things, they were human. Not forgivable, not necessarily redeemable, but human. Terrifyingly so. And it's precisely because of that human capacity that understanding them mattered. Dialogue still mattered. Not necessarily dialogue in the sense of extending grace or providing a platform, but again, understanding. Asking, how did they get to this point? How did they reach this conclusion? Why do they believe this? Asking these questions in this context holds a light up to the darkest parts of what it means to be human. And as such, we have to grapple with them. But such questions, necessary questions, important questions, are not only reserved for the darkest parts of human history. If such questions of understanding, why do they believe this? If such questions of understanding matter that much at that extreme of humanity, how much more do they matter for the people sitting around you right now? For that family member at Thanksgiving that you stopped bringing certain topics up around. For that person on the internet that says things from a viewpoint that seems kind of unimaginable sometimes. For that student in section that you smile at once and said, interesting point, and then went back to your dorm and complained about to your roommate. Or for that one friend that you started to phase out because they said some things once that just didn't sit quite right with you. Take about eight billion of those people, put them together, and you get our world. Many of us who come to Harvard have dreams of changing the world, of leaving an impact. But you cannot change a world they refuse to understand, to talk to. You cannot convince someone of something if you do not understand them first. Peace through understanding can survive conflict, while peace through agreement lasts only as long as everyone keeps agreeing. In most cases, understanding is difficult. Sometimes you have to fight for it. Sometimes you have to fight yourself and your own beliefs first before you can truly achieve it. It takes effort. My grandfathers knew that. So as we all go out into an increasingly troubled world and divided world, I want to leave you all with one simple practice. Whenever you meet someone you disagree with, stick your case. Yes. Stand up for what you believe in, absolutely. But also ask the other person about their beliefs. Ask them how they got there. Place yourself in their shoes and ask, why do I believe this? Listen, like you might be wrong. That is not a weakness or betrayal of your own ideals. That is the hardest and most important thing you can do in a world that is constantly telling you, pick a side. I told you my life begins like a joke. Well, my Muslim grandfather was buried facing Mecca. My Jewish grandfather was buried in accordance with Jewish law. My Christian grandmother was buried

How To Argue Without Dehumanizing

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with a cross. In a way, the punchline never really came. There was no resolution to the setup. They were all very stubborn, and they held on to their own ideals and traditions until the very end. But still, they respected each other, they chose each other, and at the end of the day, they were proud to be of one family. Look around you right now. Look at the people around you. The person to your right, the person to your left. You're sitting now amongst people of every belief in every background, a family that we have built over the years here at Harvard. Do we agree on everything? That's the section kid. Will we ever agree on everything? Certainly not. The world beyond these walls, it has all the same disagreements, the same differences of opinion, the same divisions that we have. But I urge you, see the people in your class for who they are as people. Fight to understand them and their beliefs just as much as you stand up and fight for your own. And after you walk through the gates of this yard, for the first time as Harvard graduates, do the same to the people of our world. Because in a time this complicated and this divided, understanding and a genuine willingness to look a little bit deeper into how those divisions start to heal. Thank you all and congratulations for the consultant.

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Blessed are you.