How Jiu Jitsu Started A Middle East Talk

A jiu jitsu gym is not where most people expect to have a careful conversation about Israel, antisemitism, and identity, but that’s exactly what happens here. I’m joined by a Jewish Israeli American lawyer and training partner to talk through the topics people usually avoid, not to score points, but to understand how real lives and real history sit behind the headlines.

We start with what brought him to the mic: a post about war in the region and the need to hear a perspective that often gets flattened or caricatured. From there we dig into growing up Jewish in the American Midwest, the moment academia and politics start framing everything as oppressor versus oppressed, and why that mindset can make complex conflicts feel like a cartoon. We also connect the dots to education in the US, including school choice, why some kids get opportunity and others get trapped, and how ignorance can turn into ugly generalizations.

Then we zoom out to Jewish diaspora history and the stories many Americans never learn: Jewish communities across North Africa and the Middle East, what it meant to live as a protected but second class minority, and why so many communities fled. We also talk borders and immigration through a faith lens, plus a vivid look at Shomer Shabbat as a weekly reset that forces community, rest, and attention.

If you want a conversation that treats Jewish identity, Israel, diaspora history, and antisemitism with seriousness and humanity, hit play. Subscribe, share this with someone who thinks they already understand the topic, and leave a review with the question you still can’t shake.

Transcript

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Welcome And Meet The Guest

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Welcome to the Darrell McLean Show. I am the host Darrow McLean. Independent media. It won't reinforce tribalism. We have one world. Nobody is leaving. So let's reason together. I think I messed it up. I think I messed you supposed to say we have one planet. Anyway, um I got an amazing guest today. So the wonderful thing about jujitsu is it lets you meet people from like all around the world. The next guest, he was I would always pass by him because he was in the 5 a.m. class and I was in the 6 a.m. class. And I knew he was a lawyer. And I also knew that he was intelligent. I did not know that his uh religion. And I um came to find out later and it it amazed me for some reasons. Well, you'll find out during the show, but I'm gonna give him his introduction. So he is a Jewish Israeli American. He grew up in the Midwest in the 80s and 90s. He traveled to six six times, mostly of the with a family there. Most of them live within 10 to 15 miles from Gaza. His biggest hobbies are Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, going to the gym, reading, podcasting. He's married with kids, and he's a lawyer. He litigates business disputes and he's been on the East Coast since 2008 and the DMV since 2022. Let's welcome our guest. You can start talking now.

SPEAKER_05 2:18

Hey, good morning. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

It's great to have you. Before I guess uh before we get to the beat and potatoes of um how we got here. I wanted to basically let you um in your own words kind of describe what made you interested in even coming on the show.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Yeah, there was um there's there was a Facebook post.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

I think you're you're sharing a substack article. Um it had to do with the the Iran war and the the Israel, Israel's involvement, US involvement. So I just wanted to give you the chance to talk to somebody who uh is Jewish, Israeli, that that has that perspective and hear that side out.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, and you know what was amazing, guys, is I had been wanting to ask him questions for uh months um because I knew he was on a a different side of the thought than I had. And out of respect for him, I didn't do it because I'm gonna be very frank here. I don't like when

Why He Reached Out

SPEAKER_00 3:29

people ask me questions about black people, and I always say I'm not like the king of black people. If I find it offensive when people do that, and so I was as a way to kind of treat people how I want to be treated, I just never asked. So when he asked me, I was extremely excited. And so I just want to start off by just telling us a little bit about like your childhood, your upbringing.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Yeah, so I I grew up in the Midwest. It was the 80s and 90s, were a really good time, I think, in in terms of um the Jewish experience in America. I think I think everybody I always felt very welcomed. You know, the very first time I remember anybody even saying something that was remotely uh, which I didn't find that's aisemetic at all. It was a neighbor kid, and he said to me, he goes, you know, you guys are so, and I don't think he meant this word pejoratively, I think he meant it more like average figures, you guys are so mediocre. I I always thought Jews were you know rich.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Oh wow.

Growing Up Jewish In The Midwest

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Um and really, you know, the the 80s and 90s, I really felt like we're we're very much that way. Um there there was while I was in college, I think in grad school, and you know, kind of the first time I I got the taste of you know a real dislike for for Israel um was was in uh ran for 9-11. And it was uh I remember one of the it was a professor and she says, you know, imagine what this must be like for the Palestinians who who feel like a 9-11 like this every day. And and it was I couldn't help but but feel like I was in the upside down when you know it was our people who you know get on bus or go to a cafe or a pizza shop and then a suicide though blow them up.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, that's that's so crazy. Um I I I got a lot of questions about that, but I'm gonna I'm gonna table it for a second. I was born in 1984. Am I closer to you?

SPEAKER_04 5:44

Because I know you're like Yeah, you're you're fairly close in age, a little a little younger than I am.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Okay, perfect. I'd say a little younger or a little older.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

You're a little younger than me.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Oh well, good. I I'm happy that I'm younger because I I and I don't say this uh a lot, guys, but this guy's smarter than me. So if he was joking to me, I was gonna feel kind of bad.

SPEAKER_05 6:06

But so you're more bad than me.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

But well, well, it's it's just that I'm of a um what you call it, I have um what they now call high functioning autism. They didn't they didn't know what it was when I was a kid, and I it's hard for me to sit still. And so in order to have the nervous energy uh controlled, I just read a lot. Like even normally when I'm recording uh podcast, I can't sit still, I'm walking around the entire time. But uh I got a question about the the kid saying the statement and the professor saying the statement, I just find it very mind-boggling because uh a child will say something and it's it's sweet and innocent, but and you would think a college professor would know better. And I find myself shocked sometimes that the out of the mouth of babes, they're smarter than some some adults who should know better.

SPEAKER_04 7:01

Yeah. I think college, uh I think academia has gotten you know pretty badly infected with with the you know kind of third worldish, you know, oppressed to oppress um viewpoint that you know automatically, no matter what, if if somebody fits into who they view as the oppressed category, they're right about everything.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

And you can't do anything wrong.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

And and and I and I and I think I I I I I have the same view is that they they think everything is binaries. Left, right, liberal, Jew, Palestinian, whatever, Israel, Russia, and it uh Russia, Gaza, and I'm like, no, no. These things are more complicated. This chess piece over here affected that chess piece over

Academia And The Oppressor Lens

SPEAKER_00 7:50

there. And I think what it is, and this is I'm not trying to attack uh teachers, but I noticed this when I was in Florida. I was privileged enough to be raised by my great grandparents. I I grew up in a home in a home where everybody in my house was family. My great-grandmother was there, my grandmother was there, and so I got to experience the joy of always being educated and always going to private schools. I really believe that the problem is that rich kids get taught and poor kids get tested. And a lot of it is ignorance. And in my state, uh, which I come from uh the great state of Florida, which that's kind of a joke because Florida's awful. But but uh but um I noticed the disparities early on, like the things that I would have that just seem

Education Gaps And School Choice

SPEAKER_00 8:45

normal, like some of my closest friends didn't have, and one of those the things are education. And I would think like if education is supposed to get people to the to the the future, then why do we have then why do I know that that's an F school because I can read it in the paper and that's a D school and that's a C school. And and we think that that those kids are gonna grow up to do what? Because when they got their diploma, but everybody knows that their diploma came from an F school, and then it's those people are kind of the ones that uh, in my opinion, make the most negative comments because they weren't I don't even think it's out of hatred, I think it's out of ignorance. Um and it it's it's I think it's like uh you know a similar seek same. We pick presidents like we pick like we pick like we pick beer commercials, and they don't they don't realize like this isn't a sport, this is life. Uh it's it's very complicated. What do you do? Do you think I'm on to something with that?

SPEAKER_04 9:45

I I think you are, and it's actually, you know, one of the causes that's closest to my heart is um school choice. And in Florida, actually, a fall state is taking a huge leap there. They now have an $8,500 per style voucher program. You can take it, you can send your kid to the public school if you want, or you you take the $8,500 voucher and you can send your kid to whatever school you want.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

That's great.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

I think that's the look that's the way of the future. I really, you know, our one of the things that I really wish would would spread more in the country because you know it's it's it it's completely unfair that you leave the people have to be stuck in the school that that you know, if it's not doing well, that's everything to fit it. You know, that's why the state doesn't lose out, you know, the 8,500 they would have paid more to educate the kid in the public school than that 8,500. So they save money actually. And see and and the parents, you know, they get they get the chance to choose. So I really think I I I agree with you there, and I feel the worst for for kids, they're just stuffed in bad schools and there's nothing to do about it. I send my kids to to private schools, and I I don't I frankly I don't know what the public schools here are like. They're they're probably reasonably good, but you know, if for religious reasons, I want my kids to have a Jewish education, and you know, everybody should have that opportunity though. People that want to send their kids to a private school students should be able to take the phone.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

And and I and you know what's funny, uh, you're speaking my language because I I think of what it is is, and I'm I like I said, I well, I'm gonna I sometimes I I I I get muddled language up because I'm I'm trying to speak fast, so I'll just say colleges, what I should say, some colleges, so plus I'll say like I think that what it what happened when I was growing up, the there was a this really anti religious fervor that shocked through the school. And it seemed like it was always this battle between so when I was in Florida, it it went just like this. It was the it was the gay stuff, and Matthew Shepard had just gotten killed, and then so we had to have have conversations about uh hate crimes legislation, and there was a Tina Brandon thing that happened, and then you know, every that we were about that, and that's when I started to see the the conversations in the country start to shift. Then it was can gay people be in the Boy Scouts, and I grew up listening to you know conservative talk radio, not knowing what it was. My my day, like literally as a child, I grew up, first person I would hear would be uh Bumble Love Sponge, followed by Neil Bortz, followed by Bill O'Reilly, followed by Rush Limbaugh. You know, I didn't know who these people were, but I just would always say, Oh you know, that and then that was and then I would go out in life, I'd be like, well, I haven't even seen a gay or this, or what are they what are they even talking about? But I I started to think that the narratives were starting to be created even when I was a child. Because a lot of the things people say now, I don't even have to debate the issues. I'm like, they were saying that when I was 13, it wasn't true then, it's not true now. But um to jump back to what you said, I've always been very fervent about school choice because when I was in Florida, if you if you were homeschooled, all homeschool kids got to pick what uh school they would wanted to play sports at because they they they said it wasn't fair to punish a child that they can't be on a sports team because they are homeschooled. And I was shocked when I came to the Commonwealth of Virginia, and I don't know if it's changed now, but if you were homeschooled, you couldn't play sports. I was like, that's that's how is that fair? I said, You're this is supposed to be a free country. How can how can my you're gonna tell me if I want my child to participate in a sport, I have to give you their brain. Um and and people used to always say I'm a radical. I was like, no, I'm not a radical. And I say, God made this world and everything was free. I why do I have to get a license to fish? You know why and and and I and I so I'm always like, once you start allowing them to do one thing, they they kick the you know. So I used to when the what they used to call the crazy religious right people were uh fighting for stuff, I would be like, oh good, let them fight because they're I they're on the right side of the issue in this thing, but I think it was the the a lot of the teachers were secklarists, they didn't talk about their religion, but I just could pick up on they were mostly atheists, and and so that was a fight that they were having without ever saying that that was the real fight. But my what I want to ask you is when you were growing up, was your childhood like a politically, religiously, or culturally uh Jewish?

SPEAKER_04 14:34

Yeah, it was. Um I wasn't as as devout as I am now at that time. Uh but yeah, absolutely. We we were um very, you know, always uh my my father's from Israel. He wasn't born there, he was born actually in Costa Blanca,

Faith And Family Roots

SPEAKER_04 16:45

Morocco, but his family fled in uh in the mid-50s uh to Israel. Um and you know, he came from a big family, ten brothers and sisters, and you know, almost all of them live there, their kids and then their kids' kids. So the the bigger part of my family is over there. And yeah, I I I got to go there once as a kid only, and then you know, kind of as a teenager adult, but like quite a bit more often. Um but yeah, very, very much uh proud Jewish home. Um and like I said, it was I certainly wasn't living among many other Jewish people, but it it did feel weird. You know, there's there was a little bit, you know, felt like a little bit of an outsider, but not much.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

I got a question for you because I I don't want to skip over it. You said something in there, and you said your your your father had to flee. Would you tell us? Do you do you know what why he had to do that?

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah, so this is a uh a thing that people that are from that part of the world don't know much about. There's a thread, and you know, obviously this is this is not universal, but there's a there's a threat in Islam that's a very supremacist uh type thread that says, you know, anybody who's not a Muslim that is living in a Muslim country, if you're a Christian, if you're a Jew, you're gonna live as an immin. I don't know if you've ever heard that word before.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

It means second-class citizen. So that means you can't build uh your houses of worship, or if you do, like they're gonna be smaller and and lower than the mosque. You have to walk on the other side of the street. You can only live in these they call them mela. It's like the Arabic version of ghetto. Yeah. Um you you you can't only Muslims can ride a horse, you know, you have to be lower down. You have to pay a

Jews In Arab Lands And Dhimmi Status

SPEAKER_04 18:39

tax. You you pay a special non-Muslim tax.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, they they it sounds almost like the uh the the the Muslim version of like what apartheid.

SPEAKER_05 18:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the more or less um I guess strict or or severe.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

Um but it was always there. You know, my my my family was there, they they lived in the Melan. And um you know, it became the the the Jewish population of Morocco was probably peaked somewhere in the around 250,000. And it was the population that lived there a very long time before Arabs ever came there, before before they spoke Arabic in Morocco. Uh there were Jews there speaking Hebrew. Um at the time of Carthage, there were there were there were there were Jews in North Africa because they could speak the same language, but are basically the same. Um so things things got much worse um in the 50s, so there became a lot of very uh anti-Jewish anti-Israel sentiment in the Arab street. So almost everybody, not everybody, today there are probably 25,000 Jews living in Morocco, but to give you an idea, you know, there were 250,000, and those 250,000 at a time have become more than a million people. There's more than a million people in Israel that are descendants of people who came there from Morocco.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

It's it's amazing. You keep going. I want I want to know, I want to hear more.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

Yeah, so it's it's you know uh a big population, pretty much all less. It's the same thing all across, you know, what we now call Arab countries, which of course, you know, weren't always Arab countries prior to prior to being Arabized, you know, like Iraq, for example, you know, it was Mesopotamia, it was Babylon.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah, that's what that's what I tell people. I say I read what I I I I'm gonna I this is a conversation we'll say for I want to have you on this thing a million times, so I know we I go save that question. But I always tell people there's a story in what we call the Old Testament where God tells Jonah, you're gonna go to Nineveh. And I say, if you look on a map, Nineveh is modern day, you know, this. And I said, it's either Iraq or Iran. I think I think if I remember correctly, it's Iraq. And I said, but most people they don't think about stuff like that. That there is no such thing as a land. There's I remember I remember learning that there was one point in time when the Catholics were killing everyone, and the Arabs and the Jews had no um nothing to do but uh help each other. And then I just said, but it's almost like a it's a tribal nature that a certain group in in within a tribe will will not like it the entire time. And then it seems like when some of the elders pass away, the youngers are the ones that start the beefs. Um, and that that's kind of a broad brush. And then because people are normally ignorant of the history, they'll they'll just say, oh, this has been going on forever. And I said, No, it hasn't been going on forever. It actually didn't start till this particular uh prime minister passed away, and then the next person that came in had a different foreign policy, and and then the person that died on the other side, and and you know, but it's it's complicated.

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Um the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is there were Jews and all these all these countries that we we now call Arab countries.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Obviously, Arabia was has always been Arab, but but these other countries, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, none of those places ever had Arabs in them. Nobody spoke Arabic. There were Jewish people were there long before Arabs were there. Were there people there?

unknown 22:32

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

There were the Arabs or Babylonians, there were Assyrians, there were there were Aramaeans and Assyrians, there were Egyptians in Egypt and so forth. But but we're not Arabs. Jews were there long before Arabs were there. Today, if you look at all those countries, almost every single Jew has left. Every single one of those countries has become completely completely driven out. Even even countries with with Jewish populations that reach back all the way to the Babylonian exile, like Iraq, for example. You know, there's been Jews here since 586 BCE. Now, you know, I don't think there are any. And there may be uh you know 10 to 20,000 Jews in in Iran, and they've been there just as long as well. But you know, it's it's just those things have become you know intolerable for not just for Jews, by the way. Every every other ethnic minority has been driven out of ethnic countries, Christians, Yazidis, Afrians, Baha'is, every, you know, the the the Islamic uh supremacist, that that strain of it has yeah uh driven out every other minority uh religion from their country.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Yeah, what I'm what I'm my my biggest prayer is is this. I like well, first off, let me just cars off the table. I am one of those people that I don't believe in borders. I I I I wish I believe in freedom of travel. Um I pe I think people if if labor um can travel, that should be legal. If because I just feel like if money can travel electronically and change the world, then so should people. Um now, of course, I think every every territory can say, well, you know, this person has done this a lot of times, you know, but so I am one of those people when I I get on the news and they say, Oh, eight million people fled through the United States. I'm like, good. I hope I hope they're from these countries that people are getting driven out. And now the melting pot will get more melty air here and now We'll be forced to

Borders Immigration And The Bible

SPEAKER_00 24:41

uh uh learn each other. And it what I'll say what frustrates me the most uh is like okay, I wanna I just say in karaoke a lot. One of my favorite bars is a place called Keegan's. What what is Keegan's? An Irish pub. So were the Irish always welcomed in America? No. And then it's like we can keep going from there. And I was just like, so if we can just start with, we know the Irish were driven out, we know they weren't welcome here, we know they're welcome now. So how about we start with this fundamental principle? What is most uh personal is universal. So and you just keep going. Somebody's in this country and they are from wherever. Oh, what happened? And that's how we uh, you know, you know um try to fix this problem. I I um I I asked somebody somebody said something to me one day and I I know it came from a from a good place, and they said, Do you believe that Israel had to has a right to exist? And I said, I actually believe that question is anti-Semitic. And he and and he Dr. Shah, I said, uh have you ever asked me, does any other country have a right to exist? I said they're human beings. That's a stupid question. I said I said they have a right to exist, just like you. And even if even if you had to ask me that, uh, that's how bad it's got. And I said, Yes, they have a right to exist. And do you have any deeper question than that? And I and I felt bad because I think it came from a good place, but I was so frustrated when I when I'm like, Israelis do not have to beg for a right to exist, they do exist.

SPEAKER_05 26:20

And that's and that's I I love that response.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

Um I I will push back on the on the borders thing and and okay, let me get me go ahead, push back. So you you and I I think are both very devout religious people, and and you know, if you look at the Bible, this this is one of the things that's that's I think very unique about the Hebrew Bible, you know, when you compare it to anything else that's come before, and even after for that matter, is you know, when when the Jewish people were you know left Egypt, you know, God says that and even before that, when when Abraham came into the land of Canaan, God says, okay, here are your borders. These are gonna be the borders of your country. And so the idea that, okay, you're a people, you're you're gonna have a people, and they're gonna have a border, they're gonna have a country, and those borders should be respected both ways. You're not meant to go expand out beyond your borders, and other people aren't meant to invade your borders. And I've put not only people I put on earth. I've put 70 different nations on earth, and every single one of them has their place, and and there's a reason that I that I you know made people the way I did, made different nations, not everybody's the same. And I don't want uh a grand, you know, Roman Empire or Babylonian Empire or something like that. I I want people to have you know their separate countries and their separate peoples, and and there's a reason for that. I I think that's so different from you know all these empires that have come and gone, and frankly, from you know a lot of these universalist um ideologies, communism and and you know, those kinds of things that were it's like, well, we have the best idea, and we're gonna we're gonna share that with everybody, and everybody it's this universalist impulse. You know, on the one hand, it's very understandable that you say, well, gosh, we've got the best ideas. Why why wouldn't we share this? We'd we'd be we'd be uh selfish not to share this with everybody. Yes. Um but you know, on the other hand, I don't think that's God's plan. I don't think that's what God wants. God wants there are different people with with different priorities and different countries and and um there should be borders and and they should there should be, you know, the nations should be able to um you know decide for themselves what kind of nations they want to be. And you know, the U.S. I think is very different from most countries. US is a country that you can come to from somewhere else and become American. It's not like you know, if you or I were to go to France and move there and live there forever, we don't become French. But you know, somebody from France can come here and become American, somebody from Nigeria can come here and be American. And it's just a different concept. And I I I love it. I think it's a great concept.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

I I I I I'm gonna I I think that is a topic that I would actually us to come back on and talk about uh more broadly because I I I I kind of agree and disagree at the same time, and I think it is rich. Um hold on one second, guys. I I live everybody knows a little Ocean view. There's planes flying by. Hey, all right, so you guys you got the uh you missed our vicious chihuahuas protecting us from the airplanes that flew across. But I when I before that would happen, I was saying I would actually like to have to have him back on to talk about this topic because I agree and disagree. When I when I think about uh my religious context, I I think about it like this in the original plan, um, God gave us everything and literally said, you can have all of this, you just can't eat from this tree. And we literally only had one rule, and we had to we had to modify it because we disobeyed. And then one of the prophets came and said, Okay, we're gonna give them ten rules. And then that was that was God's giving us another chance. And not all of us, but a lot of us broke all the ten rules. Then another prophet said, give them the entire book of Leviticus. And not all of us, but a lot of us broke a lot of the rules. So I think God's original design, which I I wasn't there in eternity past, was no borders. That was the Garden of Eden. God, because of our disobedience, had to keep editing the plan because of us. And I think that's a conversation that we could have that would be long, it would take longer. And I think because of that, which you said about us being uniquely this and uniquely that, I think about um there was one of the prophets who said something and he was all alone, and and God said, No, no, no, 7,000 I have that have not been their knee to bail. And I kind of think it you will always have the person in the tribe that says we can share with everybody. But that person is the idealist, or we may call it a prophet. The other person isn't is the the the tribe leader because he's better at operations. You know what I mean? He he understands fully what that person says, but he knows that there's seven years of toil, seven years of rest, etc. etc. And so sometimes the idealists have beautiful ideas, but they don't understand the practicality of that doesn't work over here. And like I said, I I think this is a rich conversation because I said I both agree and disagree. Um, so look, I don't even know where to segue from that. So what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 32:05

Yeah, you know, it's even even if you you can't even if you were to take the Bible out of it for a minute and just say, you know, okay, um what's better? People to be have most of their lives governed by, you know, a big um government somewhere else, where other than where they live, or have you know more the the most amount of stuff governed very locally, and you know, only very small certain things governed from far away. Um I think most people would prefer, hey, you know, the the people that I'm near, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Oh yeah, I definitely I definitely agree with that. I definitely agree with that. And um, but I and I and I was just what I what I was trying to I often say this when I talk to people in like the behavior psychology field. I said, you think that people picked the best decision? I said that wasn't the pick. I said they I said they picked the best out of three bad decisions. And um, so I I definitely uh understand what you're saying. I I want to ask uh like a personal question. Um, which person do you think in your family influenced you the most? And I only asked that because you when I when I you know when when we were talking and you to when you brought up your grandfather, that and that kind of made me think about the family.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Yeah. Well I'll I'll tell you that grandfather actually unfortunately never met.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:34

He he he had my grandmother on my father's side, but I said I ever had the chance to go visit there. I'd say, you know, one of the obviously you know, parents are always gonna be the most influential people on of somebody, especially in their earliest days. Uh but you know, as I as I grew older, I I I one of my dad's brothers in Israel was was particularly influential. He had become um he had become quite a bit more religious, and he also was dealing with an illness. He had lung cancer, and the the guy just would did not stop. He he lived, you know, like on just like one fraction of one lung, he's he's still you know going around driving me places and and uh he really you know the the uh uh amount of they they call it

Simple Faith And Family Influence

SPEAKER_04 34:24

in Hebrew eman emunapshuta, like simple faith.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Would you would you pronounce that word for us one more time?

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Yeah, emunapshuta. It it translates, I think, almost literally to like simple faith. Like like um I I don't know a better way to put it, like just No, that was I look I wanted you to say it because the second you said it, I felt it.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

We s we sang a song at a church I used to go to, and the song used to say, it would just say, The beauty of simplicity will bring you down to your knees. God, I love you because you first loved me. So that's why I wanted you to repeat it again.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some somebody that it live that and you can see that in them. It's like, oh, and you know, be somebody that that potentially had reasons not to be happy with his lot or you know, um, but you you you still see it.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah, that you're your um he reminds me of actually um my grandmother. She was a radiologist um and ended up getting cancer, and and she was cheerful the entire time. And even when she was doing going through chemo, they told her she was gonna pass away, and she didn't literally told me. She said she said that she heard a voice from God and it said, No, you're not, and they said they had taken all the tests, and she said, Well, I just heard a voice, go take the test again. And then just because she had worked at the hospital, they scheduled everything, came back and did the test, and when they scheduled it the next week after the cancer was gone. So you know, and she's 75 years old now and has breast cancer, and that's the person that most influences me. I I kind of think it's funny. When I I have this radical view because my grandma always tells me, oh no, and she'll be getting on her little rants or Avs, and she said, I refuse to believe that just because I'm a Democrat, that Republicans don't have something to say. And and I said, That's where I get it from, huh? Yeah. Staying to that, was there like a um uh a teacher that kind of uh had the same influence on you?

SPEAKER_04 36:38

Uh probably one of the most influential teachers I had was my first judo coach, too. Um sort of been kind of late 90s college judo, and just uh he was a very influential guy for ways that I don't know if I can articulate on the spot, but but um you know it I I I think when you start martial arts, I know you you started much younger, I think you were you were in wrestling. So I had to yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

I was I was yeah, I was um we were my granddad was a boxer and he was the warden of the juvenile justice center. So we he kept us active. So I was on the swim team, gymnastics, taekwondo. Um there was no judo because I didn't know that exists. So it was uh taekwondo

Coaches Martial Arts And How We Learn

SPEAKER_00 37:24

and then swimming team, wrestling, baseball, and then cross country. So I I was like a multi, always doing something.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

Yeah, and I didn't have any of that. I I yeah, really judo was was the very first real organized sport I got involved in. It was you know my freshman year in college, and I never stopped. I've never been you know off the mat since then.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Oh, nice, nice. Yeah, man. See, it is great. Like even even though you started later, you know, yeah, we we still we we met each other uh you know on the way there. Um so it's like sticking to that, like because we you do we we we both met each other through Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Is is is you have like a professor coach something that had a uh impact on you? And I want to think about like what type of student were you? Were you like the rebellious student, the wanted to learn student, or you know?

SPEAKER_04 38:24

No, I've I've always been the the wanting to learn student, um deep focus.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

God bless you. I was I was the pain in the ass student.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

Yeah, so I I mean if if if we're talking about deep judges in work school, it's just really the same, you know, always always um wanted to to learn focus and and pay attention. And um all every single coach I've had is it's been incredible. Um when I went to law school, I'd actually been out in the world for several years first, and then when I went back to law school, it was just such a to be back in academia and and the have the job of just learning all day. And so much had so much gratitude that that the ability to be there at that time.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

So what made you wanna when when you I want you to continue, but um I also want you to know the next question is gonna be like what made you want to be a lawyer?

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Yeah, so it was I I had spent years out in the world, I was working in commercial insurance and it was cool. I liked it, really liked it. Um but I was I was at a place in my life where I was getting married, I was gonna be moving. Um and you know, that that world was changing, the commercial insurance industry was changing. And so I thought to myself, you know, I've kind of always thought about maybe being a lawyer and said, well, let me take the law school admission test and see how I do. And if I if I do well, then I'll know you know it's meant to be. And if I don't do well, then I'll know that too. So I guess I just ordered all the the 30 previous law school admission tests, and yeah, just for for uh you know a month or two, just did a bunch of practice tests, you know, set timers and you know, just try to do as as much as I could under the the real time pressure

Becoming A Lawyer Without A Script

SPEAKER_04 40:14

situation and to see how one line to. And I I become the practice tests, I was gonna score uh you know above the 90th percentile. Um some of them much higher, but you know when when it comes to game day, you don't always have your best day. So so I my my when I actually got in there and took it, I I get 90th percentile, which was which is good enough to get into a law school somewhere all where all the places we were looking. My my wife was was uh interviewing for a residence. She was a pediatrician. And so I we I we didn't know where we'd end up, but I I knew that I was gonna be able to get into a law school one of the places we ended up. So that's what happened. She dashed over Norfolk, so I went to law school later and married. And uh turned out the timing was was all really good. Um started when I started law school, and by the time I got out, things were starting to get a little bit better, and and um if you were real tippy top towards the top of the class, you could get a decent job. If if if you weren't, it was gonna be a lot harder. You'd have to scrap a lot harder, but that got those uh man.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

That's that's that's amazing to hear. You know, my original job that I used to when I used to think about that people would always tell me I was very good at public speaking, I wanted to be a lawyer, but I wanted to be a constitutional law professor. Uh I like to, or I'm sorry, constitutional law lawyer. And I it was basically I kind of talked myself out of it. I I I started to think, you know, what what do you make? I have to get to where I'm gonna make money, you know. And then immediately it went from wanting to be a lawyer and I got really big into uh science and biology, then I my brain was like, oh no, how are you gonna make no money there either? But it's cool that somebody actually didn't overthink it and shot their shot. Was that was there like a rabbi or a professor that that kind of you looked up to that made you think about law school?

SPEAKER_05 42:17

No.

SPEAKER_04 42:18

Um, you know, I I I didn't meet any of my law professors until I got there. And I and I've been out of school for like eight years before that. So there was not nothing really like that. It was it was more just you know, um can I do this? And you know, is it is this is is this the best path for working? You know, like I said, I was gonna be moving. I didn't know if I'd find anything comparable to what I was doing uh before law or living. So the the timing was just really good for it.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

I wanted I wanted to ask you that type of question because me and you agreed to like an hour, and you know, I I told him we don't have to do this all in one segment. But I wanted to last question because there's a there's a a racist narrative, anti-Semitic narrative about all Jews being lawyers. That's why I asked whether was there a rabbi or anything like that that that so that that was a loaded question. I was I I asked that because I was trying to debunk uh a narrative and that you you did it without knowing, that's why I asked the question. Um like I said, it's it's already um 1049 and I know I promised you an hour. We we're gonna we don't we we may not record this guys, but um I mean we may not post this one, but because we're gonna do it in a mini section, but there's there anything you want to uh say in the last 10 minutes like about any topic well you know if you still have questions, I I think we still have about 20 minutes, so I'm happy to Okay, perfect, perfect. I um I wanna we because you were because I was very fascinated with the fact that you you you were kind of uh how people who are uh raised in like a strictly religious home but are not religious and grow up and grow into it, when did it become your faith become more serious to you?

SPEAKER_04 44:16

So there's um there's a concept in Judaism called being Shomer Sabbath, like a guardian of the Sabbath. And I I always knew that I wanted to do that, and so I took one to a much lesser extent, I I I've always tried to avoid doing working homework, anything like that on Sabbath. But I knew one day I was gonna be fully locked in and just be, you know, everything goes on, and you know, I all that stuff. And um

Shomer Shabbat And Life Built Around Sabbath

SPEAKER_04 44:49

so before I got married, you know, that's kind of like, okay, once once we get married, that's that's what is going on, and it's gonna be uh we're gonna be show me. And so that was kind of where I really became, I think, a a lot more what I wanted to be always. And you know, you you you the the thing about being Shomer Chabat is that you have to arrange your life around it, otherwise, you know, it would be very difficult. So, for example, you know, we don't drive. We you can't start a fire on the Sabbath. So you're an internal combustion engine, you know, um among many other reasons you you wouldn't be able to drive. We don't drive on sabbat, so you've got to live somewhere. It's walking distance to your synagogue. If you want to go, you know, to services uh on Shabbat, on Sabbath. And so, you know, that's that's a big investment in uh a lifestyle is to say, okay, you know, here's here's the synagogue I'm over too. I've got to find someplace with that vial there to live. Um but yeah, that's that's to me one of the biggest and and most rewarding parts of my practice is the Sabbath. I mean, it really is it's it's if if you've never done it, it's hard to explain how it's like an island in time. You know, you have you have the week, you have everything you do, and you know, all the running around, get to the gym, get into the get to work, go to court, everything you do during the week. Then you know you get to Friday, and you know, as the sun once the sun goes down, all that's over, everything's off. You know, you're not you're not going anywhere, you're not calling anyone, no emails, no TV, no, it's all just you know, you go to services you you spend time with your family you have nice big you know festive meal together almost like a Thanksgiving look you keep talking I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna be be I'm gonna be converting pretty soon you have guests over or you know you go to other people it's it's easy because you all live in the same neighborhood because otherwise you wouldn't be able to walk to the synagogue.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

And can I ask you a question? Um yeah I'm in I'm in a community um um I'm in and out but it's just it's a it's a reform religious community and they have intense debates all the time about what date is actually the Sabbath. In your religious practice what day do you guys say is the Sabbath? Saturday the Saturday okay yeah I have we have some people they'll say it's Saturday some people will say it's Friday at this time starting 6 p.m some people say it's Sunday we do start we do start Friday night.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

So it starts Friday night at at sundown until until Saturday night at Sunday and and even even and you know even my grandfather you know I was raised African Methodist Episcopal he had a thing with 6 p.m and he would say if we had a game room in our house and everything he would say at this time 6 p.m he say none of that he said we do not play games on on Sunday da da da da now he didn't I don't know about I don't you know I never asked him grandfather why you know but even he you know we just knew there were no games on Sundays until uh sundown you could not go in that game room don't even think about it you know and he would say no he said because we don't play pool on Sundays and I know if you go in that game room you're gonna say you're playing your video games and you're gonna and so that's okay that's a that I I always kind of wonder because a lot of times I think that I'll just say this Protestants interpret Jewish text and I laugh.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

I say that's not what that meant you can you you've never met a rabbi and just asked him that you've you've butchered that in a book so that's why I wanted to ask you that question. Um when you experience so let me ask you a question too. There are so many different types of people who are we in the Jewish diaspora what is your per uh specific brand of Judaism if um if you do did I did I phrase that question correctly yeah so I you know there's there's different I guess lines there's it's funny because we're such a small people I I I I don't know if you know how many Jews there are in the world no but no but you look there's my I just started to learn this because I you know how you remember look I'm gonna give you when George Bush was like I thought these all Muslims that's kind of was me you know that I was like oh this is Ashkenazi over here and this and and this is and I just think oh I just kind of just thought Jews and these people have been chased out of everywhere and then recently maybe as of as recent as seven years ago I started

Jewish Diaspora And Where Groups Came From

SPEAKER_00 49:51

to kind of learn all the different ones and so yeah yeah so um it's funny there there's there's um there is the the there are ashkenazi safarian miseraz so the the those break th those are kind of uh an accident of history really because it really is just one people the the people the people um they're called ashkenazim a lot of people say oh that's that's the eastern european jews and that's that's a mis uh a misconception there's people um after the the Roman uh invasion and conversation of of the land of Israel is rising out you know most of the Jews especially after the the Barkov a lot of Jewish people of all places ended up in Italy and um you know it's kind of the the center of the Roman Empire the center of of uh the world and the place you might be able to start making something of yourself and and you know they they they spread to other places including the the place that that they referred to as Asconauts is uh is what you call the Rhinelands now it's kind of a border area between France and Germany had cities like Mainz Worms uh Krier so those those were the big the big um Jewish um communities of of what was called Ascenauts yeah and those people you know obviously times changed and that area you know they're driven out so they they looking for other places they moved to Netherlands or Poland or Ukraine or you know different places and and so um prior to World War II probably the the largest concentrations of the the places where the most used there's certainly a quite number in in you know Netherlands and Germany and stuff like that and France but but the bigger numbers by far had had migrated east to you know Poland, the Baltic states uh Ukraine and and parts of Russia um although you know to to call them Eastern European would be a misnomer because they they were completely um isolated so there's there was no you know Eastern Europeans did not intermarry with with Jewish people.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

So so the Jews they happened to live there you know during the period you know call it from like the 1700s till till the Holocaust so for that 200 250 years that's that's where they happen to live but you know they they're by no means from there or up there or um and didn't didn't really have any relationship with anybody that was they didn't speak the same language. The Jewish people there spoke Yiddish which is basically German uh written in Hebrew letters and and uh with with a lot of Hebrew words thrown into it whereas the the local people spoke Polish and Russian and Ukrainian and Czech and Latvian and those kinds of things you know basically just you know refugee communities that would happen to be living there um that uh nowadays people I think misname and say oh Eastern European Jews. Yeah I get you the the Sephardim were people who live Jewish people who live one one of the Spain had been a battleground between Christianity and Islam and and you know under both you know a lot of Jewish people lived there and it was it was um sephard is is is the Hebrew word for Spain. And so the Sephardim are the the Jewish people who lived in Spain and it became one of the the bigger centers of the Jewish world a lot of them they all left of course after the expulsion of 1492 many went to Morocco which is um you know where were my family prior to move to Israel. But yeah that's this is the party then the are the Eastern issues so here people lived in countries like Iraq Iran um Lebanon Egypt um Yemen and those those people were probably you know those communities that I would say are the oldest of the of the diaspora Jewish communities in other words you know if you were a Spartan person you know who lived in Spain during a certain period from the you know let's say from you know 500 to 1500 roughly you know okay well these people that these Jewish people have been living in in Iraq or Iran they have been living there since 586 BCE. But anyway so that's that's kind of the I I don't know what do you call it ethnic or background trust me that I that was a question I always had because I I am so um I I I first off let me I reject terms like liberal conservative blah blah blah it's one of those I just say my family never discussed terms like that and I I I don't even like those terms being forced upon me.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

One of my good friends is a conservative and I helped him start a podcast and he said sometimes I hear your podcast and say man is Darrell a conservative or he's a libertarian I said Darrell has principles and I just try to be morally consistent. And it's very difficult. But I had never I realized when the anti-Semitism started to pop up that most of the people I grew up liking and knowing and listening to were all Jewish but I didn't know that there were different strands. I I didn't even know like so we and when I was growing up I was when when I was my aunt's the as a family you know at the show we sat around and watched all the time Seinfield. We just we just thought it was funny.

SPEAKER_04 56:02

We know I didn't know Jerry Seinfeld was Jewish and it didn't come up you know and then when I grew up you know I I had some some uh professors I would listen to Alan Dorshew which is one of them Noah Chomsky was one of them I didn't know they were Jewish I didn't know anything about it it didn't cross my I just knew this was this was a very smart professor this one is also smart they disagree and then then as I got into some of the younger

Antisemitism Scapegoats And Tribal Instincts

SPEAKER_04 56:29

uh people I was Ben Shapiro I well I knew he was Jewish but I would listen to Sam Cedar I didn't know he was Jewish David Pacman I didn't know he was Jewish you know and then it wasn't until the this frequent rise in anti-Semitism when they started to talk about the different um versions of Judaism and I just kind of was like okay it that's something I have to dig into one day that's why that's what prompts me to want to um ask that question it's funny you you mentioned this this like recent rise in anti-Semitism it seems like this is one of the the favorite things that that anti-Semitics allow to talk about and say well you know Ostro Jews they're Europeans and you know they they they have no connection to Israel and then they're that's like okay um they're they can go back to Poland and it's like well it's like I you know Jewish people lived in Poland for you know call it 200 years 250 years but that was you know because they fled the places they were before that and before that they fled the you know the the Rhineland before that they fled Italy before that they fled from elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Some somebody somebody actually said that to me before and I said man I said that's such a great point.

SPEAKER_04 57:48

I said aren't you an Irish American I said why don't you set the example get out you know there is this this uh you and I were talking about it by text earlier this this um very human tendency to to make yourself feel bigger by putting other people down yeah and and you know it's it's it's so easy because there's no cost to it yeah you know like these people get up and they say oh you know we're on we're on this land of dollar tech. We're on the land of the the mighty you know Cherokee nation that the the proud people that it's like I'm not helping anybody but you're trying to make yourself feel good and important and virtual and I this is kind of I I don't want to I don't want to be mean when I say this.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

I'm gonna say it in the nice way. It is pointing at somebody else so they don't have to deal with the reason of why they're not successful. That's that's the nicest way I can put it but that's because I don't I don't want to say some expletives of you're just a loser and blah blah blah and maybe if you would have worked hard but you know it's very it's easy to point at somebody else of why I'm not successful because it's harder to be existentially self-reflective like did you have an opportunity that somebody gave you and you turned it down and you blew your money did did you smoke pot and it's not like this end of the world. There's things that you did that why you're not successful and a blowhard will always show up because they in order for uh people to win in politics they always have to find an enemy and Jewish people are just a very convenient enemy because it's such a small population of people. It's because somebody's already crunched the numbers and they know that there's not enough of them to fight back. And so a lot of it I I don't take I take seriously in the sense of um I'm afraid for a lot of my friends but I don't take seriously when the when the politicians are saying things like I'm like oh he thinks it's just like a wink wink thing. And and then I just kind of know uneducated people are going to repeat. So it's it's just the nature of tribalism is people just kind of follow the tribe. And I I don't even I was listening to astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson on some show and he said he said people can't he said he said he said he said it's not even um they don't mean to do it. He said but if you walk in a room he said the first thing you do is instinctually you look for what looks like you and and he says you notice if somebody's bigger you notice you're also bigger. If you're the only big person you notice that everybody's skinny. If you're the only black person you notice that some people are white. If you're the only Jewish person you know you know and he just said and and it's it's natural to have that reaction with and sadly tribalism becomes a reaction if there's an economic downturn instead of blaming oh we didn't do it they did it to us. It's like what uh they're probably just as poor as as you and and it's but and I I I sometimes used to say it is the lowly step of our of our origin. And when I was big into biology I say I mean well come on we're half a chromosome away from being a chimpanzee I can only expect so much but but when but when it gets to all the stuff I mean it's heartbreaking. I I I I was bawling my eyes out for the last four days because I I'm I'm very uh loving person. Uh I used to work for the Stand Up for Kids Foundation I used to work at social services and like I love these kids especially adoption places where they you know don't have any place to go and it's just I I always when I would think about these conflicts I used to look and I said can't you just see him as a father and see his wonderful family and his wonderful wife and then look at your wife and your kids and start there. You know and I I was my heart was broken because it was a universal almost no and I I didn't you know I I didn't know what to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:22

So um I'll I'll I'll tell you you know one of the the ideas that that I've been um thinking about recently I I was watching this video about the origin of white people have different skin colors. You know it's a really simple really simple reason is you know people did not used to travel and go for for a long time people were you know in whatever whatever latitude you know you you were from you could probably stay there most of your life generation after generation. And if you're at a latitude where you the the sun was abundant and very direct you would face the risk from you know getting too much UVB then you're gonna get a lot of sunburn

Skin Color Biology And A Moral Lesson

SPEAKER_04 1:03:18

skin cancer and have all kinds of problems from that. And so you have a protective mechanism which which is called melanin and the more of it you have the more UVB gets blocked the better protected you are against too much uh UVB.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

That's a good word I love I love that show.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:37

Yeah and if and if you're at a latitude where there's not enough or or at least at certain times of the year you're it's just way too indirect and you'll never get enough sunlight to get by vitamin D, especially if you're like just bundled up in so close and maybe like two inches of your face is showing you need to have like way less melanin otherwise you don't get the vitamin D and you're gonna get to suffer from all the the health consequences of not having enough vitamin D. And you know here God has put an unlimited free supply of energy that supplies everything we need called the sun and he's made a world that's big enough that you know we we you can have people at every different latitude and he's given us this this system for developing you know the the right for for developing the right level of melanin to either protect you from too much or or live enough in that you'll get enough vitamin D. And you know you can imagine how he must be shaking his head when people from you know that that developed in one latitude that have a particular tone look at people from that that developed in another latitude with a different tone that have the exact protection that God designed for them and they say oh that person must be inferior because they look like this or it just it just you know yeah I feel like that's gotta be insulting to God who made people that way for a super good reason.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Yeah that's deep I I I I 100% agree with that. I 100% agree with that um I just want to keep track. So it's 1110 right now um how long do you do you have available? Yeah let's why don't we wrap up for today okay so um guys we're gonna wrap up I'm gonna let um him have his closing statement um just so um anything you would like to say and we'll wrap let that be the end of the show. Yeah I don't think I can do better than I just in the very beginning of the episode

Closing Thoughts And A Pseudonym

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

that is because I am so uh worried about uh anti-Semitism that uh we both agreed um that it would be we I I would like to protect him and his family so for the sake of when he comes on which he's gonna be a regular guest I'm actually um you know I've been looking for a co-host for a very long time and so I'm gonna uh offer him you know to to um to if he would like that position because as you saw uh very smart very bright um I I learned a lot I agree with him on a lot of things um that's why I like to when I you know when I like to say the word Judeo-Christian just just to always link uh this country's foundation uh is not Christianity as you don't you don't get to any part of that faith without starting with Judaism so the notion that you should be anti-Semitic is stupidity um and I do think I'm gonna yeah I think I just convinced myself I'm gonna I'm gonna do some episodes trying to figure this out but it's gonna be a while I'm really I'm really gonna have to research it. But anyway so for the podcast's sake his pseudonym is gonna be Jacob Ben Solman. Jacob Ben Solman I hope you guys enjoyed it and I will see you on the next episode