Why Right-Wing Grievance Politics Always Collapses

Watching politics turn into team sports is exhausting, especially when people excuse obvious failure just because it comes from their side. We start with a moment of brutal candor from Nick Fuentes about Donald Trump: the “he’s secretly a genius” storyline collapses when the results look like confusion, decline, and a circle of enablers. From there we pull back and ask the question that matters more than any one figure: what does right-wing politics reliably produce when it actually has power, and why do so many people keep calling it something else?

We talk about how scapegoating and moral panic work, why immigration crackdowns and due process rollbacks don’t raise anyone’s standard of living, and how “both parties are the same” rhetoric becomes a shortcut that blocks real accountability. Instead of arguing from vibes, we compare concrete policy priorities that shape daily life: wages, union power, overtime rules, consumer protections, and the basics of a functional social safety net. We also point to social democracy and Scandinavian-style systems as proof that a higher-trust, higher-security model can exist without turning society into a cage match.

Then the conversation shifts into faith and moral consistency, including an extended discussion about the Black church, prosperity preaching, personality-driven ministry, and the gap between Sunday sermons and Monday reality. If theology is supposed to guide ethics, what happens when politics starts rewriting theology, and money starts rewriting both? We end with a challenge that’s bigger than outrage: build institutions that tell the truth, serve the vulnerable, and aim power at policy outcomes that actually help families.

Subscribe, share this with someone who’s tired of team politics, and leave a review with the one point you agreed with most or the one point you think we got wrong.

Transcript

Welcome And Ground Rules

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Welcome to the Daroma Klein channel, your host Jerome McClain, independent media level reinforced traveler. We have one planet, nobody is leaving, and let us read this together. If you want to engage in politics, if you want to engage in politics, Republican or Democrats, you have to learn how to call balls and stripes. Let's get into the episode.

SPEAKER_08 1:08

So the last time we talked about Nick Fuentes, we had him explaining how Trump is completely and utterly fucked. How he boxed himself in a corner, there's no way out, and uh functionally his presidency is over. It's done. Bag is cooked. Well now we have Nick Fuentes, and he's gonna basically say how turns out liberals were right. Now, I remember a video he did, uh a segment he did a while ago, where he I I think he quite literally said the words I'm not like one of these Kyle Kalinski guys who says, like, oh, Donald Trump is dumb. He's so stupid. I'm not one of those like Kyle Kalinsky guys who say Stephen Colbert who says stuff like that. So in other words, oh, it's you know, that's unserious commentary. That's like lowbrow commentary for you to say Trump is dumb. Well, now here we are, maybe a year or so later, if that.

Nick Fuentes Calls Trump Dumb

SPEAKER_08 1:54

And listen to what, listen to what Nick is saying now. Trump is just dumb.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Liberals were right, he's just dumb. And I have heard this firsthand from people that I know that have met with him recently, and they all convey the same thing, which is he is just stupid and old. He just doesn't know what's going on. Like, I can't really repeat all the details of these conversations. I can't get too specific, but it's not, it's not like a gimmick. He's not trying to be cute, he's not trying to be funny. He is mentally deteriorating. If he was ever smart, he isn't anymore. This is a 100-year-old man that's in control of the country, and no one can tell him no. So I said this on Alex Jones last year. I said, we're just stuck. We're just stuck with this guy. Everybody voted for this asshole, and now we're stuck with him for the next four years, and he is going to ruin everything. He is sucking all the oxygen out of the room, he is preventing any real right-wing energy from being incubated during this period.

SPEAKER_08 2:55

See, that's where you fucked up, Nick. No, this is the right-wing energy. They will never come to the full realization that this simply is right-wing politics. Right wing politics always ends in self-dealing and corruption and grifting and warmongering. Like, the whole point of right-wing politics is to suck off the billionaires and suck off the warmongers and be a fascist. And that's what we're witnessing here. He's sucking off, he's self-dealing and sucking off the billionaires, the Epstein class, and he is a warmonger and he is a fascist. Like, what right wing energy could, you know, could you meet? Like, oh, if only we had somebody who was actually cracking down on immigration. Oh, you mean like they literally are right

Right-Wing Politics As The Point

SPEAKER_08 3:41

in front of our eyes? I just covered on the show the other day, uh, or yeah, I covered on the show the other day that there's been 100,000 instances of family separation where they separate the kids from their parents. That like we're looking at they're building concentration camps and shit. They built alligator Alcatraz, we're missing 4,000 immigrants that rounded up a bunch of innocent people and sent them with no due process. Look at what's happening outside Delaney Hall in New Jersey right now. Like, you got your wish. And guess what? The country didn't get better. It turns out when you do a massive police state crackdown on immigrants and you get rid of due process and you get rid of habeas corpus and you get rid of the Constitution and you get rid of the need for a warrant to execute these things, turns out people's lives don't improve. Turns out grocery prices are going up and gas prices are going up and inflation's going up and employment's going up and the economy's barbecue chicken. And if you do a massive crackdown on immigrants, not only does it not help your average person, it actually makes it worse. And it turns out immigrants are in the same boat as the rest of us. Wow, what a surprise. So this is the fundamental cope of Nick Fuentes is that it's it's the classic, like the no true Scotsman fallacy. Oh, well, this isn't actual right-wing politics. This isn't actual right-wing energy, or maybe it's the perfect right-wing energy. Just like George H. W. Bush was, just like Donald Trump is, they all end up becoming the same functionally. And it's super serving the billionaires, becoming massive warmongers, right? Doing fascist policies where they try to control people's lives and go after minority communities. Turns out none of that will improve your life. The only thing that will improve your life is leftist politics. The only thing that will improve your life is raising the minimum wage, giving people the ability to join a union, giving paid vacation time by law, giving universal health care and universal college, right? Having a society that actually gives a shit about people and looks after them, that wants to make sure people don't go homeless, to make sure people don't have a roof over their head, that make sure people can have a meal in their belly, right? Like this is what good politics is. It's a system that actually allows you to have fundamental personal freedom in an individual sense, in an intrapersonal sense, but gives you a financial and economic social safety net where the low is not that low, and you're gonna be okay, and we're gonna look out for each other. It's an actual sense of community. That

Why Crackdowns Don’t Fix Lives

SPEAKER_08 5:55

crazy thing. You don't get that from right-wing politics. Nobody gets that from right-wing politics. What you get from right-wing politics is hatred. What you get from right-wing politics is division. You get divide and conquer. You get, oh, blame these brown people, blame these trans people. That's what you get. Oh, you're mad, blame them. Right? It's not about community. It never has anything to do with community. It has nothing to do with actually fixing problems, as we're witnessing right now. And so that's where you fucked up. It's trying to pretend like, oh, this isn't true right-wing energy. No, it is. This is right-wing energy. This is right-wing politics. This is what it fucking looks like. If you want to know what left-wing politics looks like, for example, you can take a look at the Scandinavian countries where they have a higher standard of living, they self-report being way happier, they have free healthcare and free college, they have almost universal across the board unions in some of those Scandinavian countries, and wages are higher, people are happier, and it's just better, just a better system, right? So we have real-world examples we can point to a shit that works. You guys have what? A bunch of fucking dictators and a bunch of psychotic, self-dealing, corrupt madmen. Congratulations on that.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

And we're just stuck. We we just have to deal with the consequences and try to find a way to pick up the pieces in a couple of years when the Republican primary starts, but it's pretty grim. There just simply is no plan. And what you're hearing is these like second-hand stories from people like Tucker Carlson and others, and they just talk about all we can really do is speculate what is going through his head based on conversations that these people are having with him, and nobody knows. And you just want to say what is going on in the country. First, it was Joe Biden, that was bad enough. We had Joe Biden for four years, and honestly, the difference is at least we knew he was demented. That's the difference. And it's a sad state of affairs when you say that we have two senile, demented presidents, they're both retarded, they're both wrecking the country. But

What Left Policy Looks Like

SPEAKER_01 7:39

you say the silver lining of one of them is that at least we knew it. At least everyone knew. I shouldn't even say that. That's actually the sad part. For four years, the Democrats were telling us, no, he's good, he's fine. Oh, that's all Joe Biden.

SPEAKER_08 7:52

Remember when Jim Carrey He says that, but what ended up happening? Oh, that's right. The Democrats ended up replacing Joe Biden. Funny, I don't see that happening with Trump. In fact, I see the cult is culting, and I see everybody around him is protecting him, including when he's literally in the Epstein files with a nipple torture kink of underage girls. So your false equivalence is exactly that. It's a false equivalence. Because the Democrats, when push came to show up, they were like, you know what, son, you actually got to move the fuck on. I can't see the Republicans ever doing that, ever. The fact that they haven't broken with him yet is the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen in politics. Way more embarrassing than what happened with Joe Biden.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Jim Carrey was wearing the sunglasses and doing the finger guns. And liberals, this was serious like 1984-level propaganda. They were trying to convince themselves that Joe Biden was like some kind of Tom Cruise, all-American maverick figure. It's like, look at his gait, look at the way he walks. He's going to die. So we had that for four years. Half the country was deluded about all of it, and then the other half of the country was talking about him shitting his pants and farting every day. That's your that's your country. Half the country is masked up, triple vaccinated, kneeling for BLM. Other half of the country's making diaper farted Biden shit his pants. So we live in hell. And then now it's like the roles are reversed. Now Trump is falling asleep, complete fucking idiot. Each person in the cabinet is dumber than the next. Christy Gnome and Pete Hegsetf and Susie Wiles and JD Vance. It's just cash patel. It's just a clown car of one sycophantic moron, dumber than the last. And then the King Doofus is sitting on the top.

SPEAKER_08 9:35

Well, what I would say to Nick Fuentes is Joe Biden, despite all of his many flaws, at least we pulled out of Afghanistan. At least we got a $15 minimum wage for federal contractors, right? Helped 400,000 people. At least he increased Social Security payments. At least he raised overtime pay. At least he did project labor agreements for construction workers. At least we created 775,000 manufacturing jobs with the CHIPS Act and the infrastructure bill. At least he had a pro-labor NLRB and didn't stab organized labor in the back and lower wages like Trump did. At least we had a good CFPB instead of Trump and Elon, who destroyed the CFPB and said, hey, if you get fucked over by financial institutions, you can fucking deal with it. At least Biden cracked down on wealthy tax cheats. At least he wasn't in the Epstein files with the nipple torture kink and with the Katie Johnson

The False Equivalence Problem

SPEAKER_08 10:21

story, right? At least that. At least he didn't start up. In fact, he told Netanyahu to fuck off and kick rocks when Netanyahu tried to get Biden to wage an illegal war against Iran. He drew a line. He said, I'm not doing that. You know, who else said that? Obama said that too. So by your own fucking standards when it comes to foreign policy, any Democratic president is preferable to any fucking Republican. And you know that. And you fucking know that. Oh man, the false equivalent stuff. I just can't with that shit anymore. I just fucking can't with it. And y'all have these big oh, I'm I'm a right winger, but I criticize Trump all the time, bro. I'm a real tough guy. But I'll also do some bullshit false equivalents and act like, yeah, both parties are like equally bad, bro. Oh really? Was Kamala Harris the one who was massacring 200 innocent people in the fucking Pacific and the Caribbean, bombing dinghy fishing boats as they try to get dinner? Is that what was happening? Was that Kamala Harris doing that? Was it Kamala Harris who came up with a fucking crypto scam coin and uh, you know, pulling a con on her own supporters? Was that Kamala Harris who did that? Is it Kamala Harris who engaged in uh the most brazen corruption we've ever seen, where trying to pay herself with fucking US tax money? Remember this? Trump basically taking $10 billion of US tax money for his board of peace that he fucking made up, which all went into a slush fund that only he controls? Did Kamala Harris do that? Will she ever do that in a million fucking years? I don't think so. I don't think she would. So I can't stand the false equivalence. But uh, he is correct to say that liberals were right, and he is correct to say that Trump is just dumb. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, Occam's Drazer, the most straightforward direct answer, truly is the correct thing. When you look at Trump, you go, that guy's a fucking idiot. And you know why people think that? Because he's a fucking idiot, and there's no other way to describe him. Hey y'all, do me a f well boy.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Uh that was Cal Kaletsky, of course. If you wanna know who it is, uh he was dropping some major troop bombs there.

SPEAKER_08 14:08

It helps out big time in the algorithm. Click the bell as well for notifications when videos drop, and watch that video on screen right now. You know you're gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Now the funny thing is, I always tell people the hardest thing about politics is you gotta be able to call balls and stripes. You gotta be able to call balls and stripes. And I I'm actually thoroughly convinced that uh that's a major problem in the country. The major problem in the country, as I see it, is people pick teams. Once you're on a team, you can't be honest. You want you want your team to win. I was talking to uh Josh Stockham over

Quick Channel Plug And Shift

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Opinionated uh Sister Podcast because I saw he posted a meme about uh something it was actually from the Babylon B uh much bigger show, uh, the meme page. And they said something about uh Donald Trump uh had a UFC fight and uh Joe Biden um said something about trans,

Team Sports Politics And Moral Panic

SPEAKER_00 15:13

whatever, whatever. You know, you know that whole gimmick of every time anything happens in the world, right-wingers are obsessed with trans people because that's their new kicking toy. When I was growing up, it was it was the gay panic, the gays. Gays people are in the boy scouts now. Oh god, what are they gonna do with your children? Meanwhile, people that were doing stuff for the children were a bunch of billionaires and the Republican Party, who is the supposed to be the serious people who protect the children, are doing every single thing they can to cover up the scandal. So sorry, believe, sorry, sorry, but I do not take um this seriously. I just can't. I have been around too long to see anytime there's a moral panic going on, I know exactly who's doing it, I know exactly what they're going to say, but the talking points never change. The only thing that happens is the group that they are beating up. That is what changes. And they and um they don't understand very simple concept that that their theology or whatever is being affected by their politics. So this is what I said to Josh Scott of Rover opinionated, and I'm saying this to not to him at large, I'm saying this to the entire country, saying this to the Babylon B, etc. Your theology is supposed to affect your sociology, etc. Or your theology is supposed to affect your politics, or your theology is supposed to affect your riches, your your economics, etc. What actually ends up happening is your economics affects your theology, your sociology affects your theology, and your politics affects your theology. And when we switch those two, we switch those two, it becomes very dangerous. Now, of course, when this is happening, it's not done on purpose. The people are genuinely uh they have an issue that they were, and that's the problem. That they cannot recognize the fact that one belief system, one core belief, one core value is affecting and manipulating the other core value. When me and Josh talked about it this morning, oh good friend, good great God, fearing man, uh soft-spoken, uh great, great guy. I told him I think his politics is affecting his theology. What it should be his theology should be affecting his politics. And then I gave him one example. Yeah, um, and he may respond, haven't seen it yet. I'll check later. But I had told him something as simple as is pride, but that's an easy one, because everybody knows that Lucifer fell because of pride. So I said, if the answer is yes, why don't I see meme after meme? And when I said meme after meme, I meant meme after meme from conservatives mocking Donald Trump for being prideful and arrogant. Because they only seem to be worried about pride when it is gay pride monk. To me, that is not morally serious, nor it is, nor is it morally consistent. And anybody that knows me knows my form of theology. The hermeneutics that I think about, the pride I try to practice, the praxis that I try to do, the synthesis when I when I try to synthesize the text, the the systematic theology that I practice is moral theology. And in order for me to be a serious moral theologian, I have to be consistent. I have to wrestle with what is true. And what do I how do I wrestle with what is true? I allow what is suffering to dispute. So the second I see somebody picking a team and demonizing a team, I know that is something morally unserious. I will not be involved. I'll stand there as a preparer and a preparer of the breach. But I will not engage. I can I cannot engage. I will not excise. I reject terms like conservative church or liberal church. I think those are examples of politics affecting theology. So here I stand. I could do no other. God help me. One example where this came into discussion was that was a few years ago on C-SPAN. And uh it was with Bishop Noel Jones and Dr. Jeremiah Wright. Now, this was years, years ago, I'm dying. And it's a panel discussion done by Tax Biley, and they talk about this issue. Now, the tension in this issue was the fact that uh Doctor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, is just what you heard. Doctor, which means he was seminary trained. Noel Jones Pentecostal, not seminary trained. This is but he definitely has gift of spirits. It's also oneness Pentecostal, which is a whole nother bag of um, whole nother bag we have to open theologically. Um very, very complicated.

When Politics Warps Theology

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Let's just say that people who are the oneness Pentecostals, like Pentecostals who deny the Trinity. That's basically as easy as I can tell you. They say they believe God is in one. And Noble Jones has always been open about the fact that he is a oneness Pentecostal. But in this thing, watch what it happens when seminary-trained Dr. J. Martin Wright talks to oneness Pentecostal Noble Jones. This is how complicated this stuff gets.

SPEAKER_11 21:33

Jeremiah Wright, let's take this a step further, if we might, sir, and ask you to comment on that same, that same that same question. What is it about so many African-American preachers uh that allows them to come to church every Sunday morning and to and to preach until we shout, and the choir sings until we shout, but Monday through Saturday, they ain't got no programs, no services, nothing serving African American people. What is it about that? I mean, I can't imagine King was a brilliant man, but I can't imagine that he was so bright, so bright that he understood how important that interception is, and that so many are missing that today. What's wrong?

SPEAKER_14 22:13

I'm gonna jump in with assembling list of controlling money.

Black Church Panel On Responsibility

SPEAKER_14 24:39

Multi-layered in terms of the disconnect, Dr. Taylor also mentioned in the fest trip for him at Interdenomination Theological Center, what you said, Eugene, about the disconnect between Africa and African Americans. That's a long, long, long historical problem. And that goes back to the definition of the black church. When you say the black church, when we say the black church, we got to realize we're talking about a kaleidoscope of reality in terms of theology, in terms of hermeneutics, in terms of training, in terms of what has become known as denominations, in terms of what it takes to start a church, what kind of church, turn your collar around, you got a church. What do you mean the black? Because to talk about to talk about perfecting, to talk about city of refuge, to talk about uh National Baptists, Progressive National Baptists, African Methodists, Episcopal, Christian Methodists, you're talking all over the map in terms of what is the black church. And there have been those different streams running through the definition historically since the 1700s and that are still there. There's also been a disconnect, as Eugene said it, between African, African Americans, but also between the living word that we hear on Sunday and the life we have to live on Monday. Kelly Brown Douglas says we can't talk about homosexuality because we can't talk about sexuality. So that so that there's that kind of that kind of perpetuated um propagation of ignorance that goes on on Sunday mornings that has nothing to do with the life I live on Monday morning. And it's not just in the mega churches, it's in the storefront churches that'll get me high for two hours if I feel good, but then I gotta go back into hell on Monday or Sunday afternoon. So that's why King King, no, King had a large following of similar. In fact, if you look at the guys and girls he he surrounded himself with, that's one type of clergy that you do not find overwhelmingly standing in the pulpits of the African American pulpits in the year 2003.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

Let me sell it.

SPEAKER_11 26:58

I want you to know, I want you to note that as I ask this next question, I'm looking this way. I'm not trying to cast aspersion on anybody on this on this panel or the second panel, and I mean that some serious. But I'm looking this way because I want to pick up on something that uh Jeremiah Wright raises without casting aspersion on anybody on this panel or the one coming behind us. But Jeremiah Wright, you raised an issue about the fact that when we called King the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., he showed enough was a Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Every black preacher I know wants to be called the Reverend Dr. So-and-so. I'm looking this way. Everybody wants to be called the Reverend Doctor so-and-so. No Jones, you are known as one of the foremost intellectuals in ministry in this country. Talk to me about the challenge that that presents for the African American church when we have folk who are not trained in seminary and whether or not that is, in fact. Is Jeremiah right? Is that a requirement? Given that so many of us believe that all you got to be is spirit field and that the Lord speaks to you from on high, that's all you need on Sunday morning, Doc.

SPEAKER_13 28:22

I just want to say thanks for having me here. I don't know how much gratitude I want to show right about now, but uh at least they won't say I'm playing favorites with my pastor. Nonetheless, I I think it's quite significant the point that uh Dr. Wright is raising. Uh, and I think it's essential that we define the 21st century church because from what I'm hearing, it seems as if the church is actually the black preacher. The church is the black preacher. From what I'm hearing, it seems as if uh the church is a black preacher because the people in the pews don't accept policy. Uh the committees are losing their strength. And if you notice carefully, what has happened is when Pentecostalism became the leading denomination and the fastest-growing denomination, it changed many dynamics in the whole traditional Christian black African Christian world. What happens is the Pentecostals' primary objective was to think heaven. If you were to consider the apostolic Pentecostal in particular, you will notice that the greatest thing that a person could achieve was the new birth experience, the baptism in Jesus' name, the receiving of the Holy Spirit. And what happens there is that the focus immediately went to the other world, into getting into heaven. And the faith of the Pentecostal was meet God, have a spiritual experience, let's get to heaven. The traditional church, on the other hand, dealt so much with those contemporary things that were mundary and mundate to operate their lives, that there was a problem between the Pentecostals and the traditional church. Particularly when the Pentecostal church literally evangelized the traditional church. Because it is out of the traditional church that many people went into the Pentecostal movement, and consequently there was a rift between both groups. The Neo-Pentecostals, the Charismatics, and the faith preachers, they came along and took the faith to get to heaven, and then they turned it into health, wealth, and prosperity. And so all of a sudden now we're teaching faith. That was originally Hebrews chapter 10, closing faith to salvation, and it becomes a now faith, the substance of things hopeful, of course, and it the now was subject to subjective theology, and it now began to deal with the issues of being rich, having money. This further divided us because now faith became an individual affair. So if you have the faith, then of course you can get whatever you

Prosperity Gospel And Personality Churches

SPEAKER_13 31:45

want from God. So the church stopped dealing with the whole issues of suffering because under that presentation, God will miraculously do things for you. So if you come down the aisle with $20 or $30 and I lay hands on you, then of course, immediately all of your trials will be over. Now, the thing that happens here is because of this presentation, because every presentation needs theology to make it strong. If there's no hermeneutical substratum for this presentation, then of course now we're going to have a problem. Because theology has to leave something in people's minds psychologically. And if you tell me that God is going to bless me by simply bringing something to you, and I don't have a plan, because when I'm preaching and I'm making that presentation, I have to have a plan. And the plan is if I've got 6,000 people out there, 3,000 will give me $25. But now, what is the plan for those who brought the money? Well, now understand this, understand this, and and I'm in the middle of it myself. I mean, I'm in the middle of it myself. Understand this. When people bring money based on a theology that God is supernaturally going to respond, that eliminates the development theology that is necessary to make people change their lives. And once the presentation is made, people need opportunity. Now, here's where opportunity comes. Because we don't have to ask committees anymore to decide who they want to be with. And we have even eliminated using denomination as titles for our churches. We don't call our churches particularly Baptist Church or Apostolic Church today. What we do is we give a name out there that everybody can come to that ministry and deal with that ministry because we don't want to be slated denominationalism. We don't market denomination, we market individuals today. Wherever you go, the church is personality driven. It is not institutionally driven any longer, it's personality driven. So the wonderful thing about it though, because it's not all uh pejorative, the wonderful thing about it is that you don't have to bring Baptist Methodists together. For instance, in my city, I don't have to have City of Refuge vote or decide to have anything to do with faithful central, vote or decide to have anything to do with West Angeles or decide to do anything with faith. Because it's not institutionally driven. The churches don't have to come together, but Noel Jones ought to get together with Charles Blake, and Charles Blake ought to get together with Chip Murray, and Chip Murray ought to get together with Kenneth Omer and put all our monies in the same bank and make the opportunity for the people in Ontario.

SPEAKER_12 35:25

Because money talks in America.

SPEAKER_11 35:38

They used to call y'all, you you forgive, you forgive the phraseology, they used to call y'all poverty pimps, and now they call you prosperity preachers. So the vernacular has changed. I think that's a good thing from poverty pimps to prosperity preachers, but Shakespeare asked the question what's in the name? A rose by any other name would still smell just as sweet, whether it's poverty pimps or prosperity preachers. There are a lot of folk who think there's too much focus, too much emphasis in the black church, on materialism, on money, on gain. You heard what James Cohn said earlier. Talk to me about that. And that I raise that question only because I want to expand this conversation to talk about this phenomenon called the mega church. It seems to me as one on the outside of the end that one of the reasons why, one of the reasons why the megachurch is such a phenomenon now is that we gotta preach people preaching every Sunday. You know, that if you do this, if you do that, if you give me this, if you do this, you can have all of this. So it's that prosperity message that I think is packing out some of these so-called megachurches, but but talk to me about that if you will.

SPEAKER_13 36:46

Well, one of the things that's so wrong is that theology actually sets in the mind of people a certain psychological view of life, particularly in a church situation where there is so much influence coming from the man who is standing as the voice of God. And oftentimes it fails to deal with the real issues of suffering and the real issues of a problematic

Suffering, Discipline, And Real Discipleship

SPEAKER_13 37:15

world and difficult times. This is why America had so much difficulty dealing with 9-11, and 9-11 forced so many Americans to even question the existence of God simply because they were not prepared for the tragedy that other people of the world go through all the time. I I I will I will I will point out to you the the the significance of uh of truth. And again, much of the problem, the prosperity preaching and and even preaching, period, and I think the question has to be asked if you can't preach it in Somalia, is it gospel? Because oftentimes we have preached Americanism for the gospel. There are no lotteries in in Zimbabwe, and so you can hit it rich in America uh quite easily. But but but most of the time when people have made money and make it rich in America, there was a plan somewhere. There was a check in the mail, but the check did not come from heaven. It came from some specific place, and certain circumstances allowed that money to come that way. And oftentimes we have made ourselves rich simply preaching this hocus pocus gospel, and we have not developed the individuals to go after the opportunities that are before them. And uh and and and so so consequently we have a backlash. Because I go throughout the world and people will tell you I gave in every offering. I did exactly what I was supposed to do, and I'm still struggling to meet my rent, I'm still having a hard time making my car payment. But the bottom line is when you should have followed the stream of opportunities, you were out partying and doing a whole lot of stuff that you shouldn't have been doing, and one sermon is not going to change the outcome of your life. You have to sow positively, and ministry must put people in the frame of mind that moving from one stage to the other is a process. There is no quick fix to our situation. And so, consequently, it allows people to feel the stimulation of discipleship. You have to be a disciple in order to move from one place to the other. Most of the fellows who made it rich in ministry are disciples of their ministry. I mean, they work on it night and day. I have five million miles on American Airlines alone. I lost a wife running after ministry because everybody can't sit around and have you gone all the time. Oh, I might as well be real with it. Uh uh we have gone after this stuff in a way where we are driven. We are driven beyond the norm. And all of a sudden now we're presenting a gospel that is to people no discipleship. Jesus had his fellows for three years. We want to just wake up and get called, and then we spiritualize every text. Uh uh, one man said, The Lord spoke to me, so he opened his Bible and he pointed to the scripture, and it said, Judas went and hung himself. He said, Well, let me try this again. He flipped it over, touched the next one. And the scripture said, Go thou and do likewise. He said, Well, the baseball players get three tries, so he opened it again, he hit it again. That that thou doest, do it quickly. There has to be some hermeneutics to our presentation.

SPEAKER_11 41:19

But Bishop, but Bishop, let's be real about it. Since you said you want to be real, that there isn't a lot of hermeneutics to the theology. What we get on television from these prosperity preachers, what we get in our pulpits on Sunday mornings from these prosperity preachers, is that God told me that to ask you to put $100 in the offering this morning.

SPEAKER_13 41:39

And that if you do that, the Lord told me to tell you because people are looking for a quick fix. It's like, it's like, it's like most black people supported the 911 number with all the the sorcerers and all the people who are gonna repalms. That stuff was sent straight to black people. Because oftentimes we want a drug, and the church becomes a drug where we can preach this is going to happen, this is going to happen, and people just subscribe. But that's not the way it is. You have to have discipline. You cannot overlook the principles of God and God go against his principles and make you rich. God is a God of principle. That's why medical science works, that's why aviation works, that's why you can put a boat in the ocean and it goes across the sea, because there are principles, and people want to bypass principles because they lack discipline. And the creature wants to get rich on the ignorance of the people. You've got to turn around and tell them the truth so that the only bed link in the driveway is not yours. You've got plenty out there.

SPEAKER_11 43:11

Very frankly, and to the point, isn't money well spent? There's a big debate ongoing in our community about the millions upon millions upon millions of dollars that we spend building buildings. James Cohn raised this point earlier that we money we spend building buildings, but a lot of folk in this audience, and I'm sure watching us around the country and around the world, who question, and I'm just asking the question here. What the time is? Who question whether or whether or not it is money, Jeremiah Wright, Bishop, you can get in on this in a minute. Jeremiah, if it's money well spent, as opposed to spending that money on programs and on services, we walk over homeless folk in some of these cities to get into the church. Isn't money well spent?

SPEAKER_14 43:51

I must point out that you have to go back home, and your pastor said he wants to answer that. I just want to point that out. You gotta go back to your pastor. And you don't care, Bishop don't let Jeremiah run answer that. You will hear from him when you get home.

Mega Churches And Money Accountability

SPEAKER_14 44:24

Having said that, again, again, again, we are playing with jello and it's slippery all over the place. When you say, just picture this, picture this, um, picture this. Picture this as a congregation or gathering of the elders from Judaism, Hasidic Jew, Reformed Jew, conservative Jew, Jewish rabbi women. You got a multiplicity of definitions there. So just remember, we're all over the place. Some churches, yes, it's being spent well. Other churches, of course not. Some churches, there are no Bentleys in the driveway. But as Paul Morton said, you're doing millions in missions. Mega churches. Mega churches cannot have. We have been supporting a hospital in salt pond for 15 years. We built a computer school in salt pond. A small church cannot do that. We give away one-tenth of our budget. We've been given, we've given over half million dollars in a liberal college fund. We've given over half a million dollars in scholarship. A small storefront cannot do that. So, yes, but we ain't every church. We ain't every church because some churches have half a million dollar pastoral anniversary. Hallelujah. Watch out now. So, but again, you're you're all over the place in terms of when you say is the money being spent by the mega churches, you have to define and name what mega churches you're talking about. And that's what I would just warn, so I would say in some instances, and when you're talking about most of the time we'll be seeing on television, no, but that's not as uh when you say is the money being spent by the mega churches, you have to define and name what mega churches you're talking about. You have to and and that's what I would just warn, so I would say in some instances, and when you're talking about most of the time we'll be seeing on television, no, but that's not as as Dr. Jim said, that's not all mega churches.

SPEAKER_11 46:20

Jacqueline Grant, I'll send your hand. I want to come to you in one second because I don't want to be disfellowshipped. Because you don't need to. I don't want to be disfellowshipped when I get home to Los Angeles tomorrow morning. So Bishop Jones, by all means, please speak for me.

SPEAKER_13 46:40

I don't have any problem with you telling me to shut up. I mean, that's fine. But nevertheless, I will agree with Dr. Wright. I think it's important for us to understand that the message, uh, one of my best friends and I argue all the time, how does God give favor? And I think the favor that God gives the preacher is the message. If he can touch the lives of people, he will never build a building big enough to house all the people who will want to hear what he has to say. Uh uh, there is no question in my mind. But I have never heard of the deceitfulness of poverty. I've heard of the deceitfulness of riches. And oftentimes, what happens is when we get to a certain level in ministry, we no longer feel what people feel. We no longer understand what they feel. For instance, if we were having church here today in a crowd like this, and I got finished preaching, they would probably surround me so fast and walk me out of here so quickly that I wouldn't have an opportunity to shake anybody's hand or touch anybody. At a certain point in ministry, we no longer counsel. So we don't talk to people, so we don't know what their problems are. At a certain point in ministry, we move to the suburbs, and and we no longer feel what people feel in the inner city. At a certain point in ministry, we we lack absolutely nothing. And it becomes difficult to relate again to people who are struggling, and our offering taken, our offering taking sometimes reflects the fact that we don't have a clue about what people can or cannot give. Because we initially we just stand up and we begin to call money. It is it is it's not that I'm saying that a preacher shouldn't have anything, and a megachurch shouldn't be there because if the message is there, the church is going to be big and people are going to come and lots of money going to be distributed, and the preacher might take one percent now of what comes in as opposed to 50% when it was small. I'm not saying that that's a problem, but I'm saying that every man needs somebody to answer to. Dr. Elance McCarty in in Los Angeles lent me a couple of uh tips on my way here. And he said on any given Sunday, you have uh 65, approximately 65,000 uh African-American churches. On any given Sunday, that means you have 25 million members. On every given Monday, they put in the bank 50 million. On annually, it is two billion. The members spend in the American economy 300 billion dollars. We're richer than many nations. I am saying to myself, as I thought about that, and I listened to Dr. Cohn's about us gathering together where there are no cameras,

Economic Power And Collective Strategy

SPEAKER_13 50:20

what would happen in America if all of us would forget our denominational hang-ups? And decided to bank in an international bank altogether. Now, with those statistics, uh, Dr. McCarthy still says that 70% of our churches are turned down when they go to the bank. What would happen if we if we leveraged that money, all came together, put in one place, used all these brilliant black minds that we have to give us direction. Because as preachers, oftentimes we are just creative in the Bible, and when it comes to preaching every Sunday, your time is spent so much in studying the word of God and trying to deliver the word, yet we have people in our congregations who are extremely astute at business and all kinds of other things. Why can't we humble ourselves a little bit? Let somebody put a program together, somebody become our conscience, bring us all together, and make this thing work for all of us.

SPEAKER_14 51:36

You asked, you asked, your question was about HIV AIDS. What is the black church not doing that we should be doing? Uh I would say two things practically. One, doing what Dr. Cohn and Dr. McKenzie said outright. I hinted at it subtly by saying, I want you to picture a Hasidic Jew, Orthodox Jew, conservative Jew, Reformed Jew. Jews would not have TV cameras present talking about the Jewish community. All right? We need, the first thing we need to be doing is what Dr. Cohn said and what Vastaf said, we need to have a meeting privately to talk about among ourselves what we need to do collectively. All right? Because the same issue that keeps coming up with this anti-intellectualism, the same bifurcation between seminary and non-seminary, your theology. You love that word. But how you see God? How you see, if I see God as a male, white, long beard, then I see humans, anthropology is determined by my theology. I see humans as male superior, white male superior, white men, white women, black men, black women, and hierarchically, I'm my theology has messed me up. And how I see anthropology determines how I order my society. Theology determines anthropology determines sociological, but we can't talk about that in front of the cameras. Because a lot of folk who think being saved means I'm no longer black. We need to be locked to close the door, lock on to talk to one another. Alright? Very practically, very practically, very practically. Um we need the media, Tennis. We need the media too. You too. Alright? Because you and Tennis, Tennis and Tom reach a hundred times more black folk than we do on Sunday morning. And they're listening to you all. Alright? They're listening to you all.

SPEAKER_11 53:48

We should start taking time off of sin.

SPEAKER_14 53:50

And here, here's the point. Here's the point. What ought the black church be doing? Well, in addition to the whole theological understanding of sin and that AIDS is a biological issue, not a theological one. All right, in addition to that, put that one aside, we need to do what we did back in the 60s. Martin asked Dr. Taylor, he's here, he was there, I was here. The sit-ins, the pray-ins, all that wonderful public demonstration did nothing to change anything. It brought public attention and the cameras, but the changes came after the sit-ins were over, after the wait-ins were over and the pray-ins were over, we sat down with legislators to get laws changed. You're talking about public policy? All right, call it where it is. Your story. Until Pfizer and Merck and the pharmaceuticals do hear what they did in South Africa and in Brazil and allow the

AIDS, Public Policy, And The Church

SPEAKER_14 54:48

generic drugs, anti-rectomer. Anybody can't afford what Magic Johnson can afford. And until we do that, we ain't done nothing about AIDS. So that's what the black church ought to be doing about AIDS.

SPEAKER_09 55:01

Okay. This question says it's from a black mother. Most of our men are in prison. Most of our children are failing in school. Most of us mothers are weary of trying to fix it all. What is the black church's role in building up its families?

SPEAKER_10 55:24

The black church has to hit the street. The black church has to hit the street. The reality is that young boys are being raised on the streets in the absence of responsible role models. If we've got 65,000 black churches in America, we have to ask ourselves why is there an inverse relationship between the presence of black churches and their relative absence on the corners and streets where our children live. We've got a generation of orphans that, in too many cases, the black church is ignoring. So we gotta move from the pulpit and the pews into the streets and advocate for the widow and the orphan.

SPEAKER_14 56:14

We keep hearing over and over again, is the black church healthy for black women? That black women are 60

Families, Prison, School Failure, And Action

SPEAKER_14 56:19

to 70 percent of our congregations. They are mostly single mothers, tired, working, giving too much money. We only got 30% of the brothers there, we're working them to death because they're only 30%, so they're doing everything. Who's gonna hit the street, Gene? You want the women? You want these single mothers who are already tired to hit the streets? When you say the black church, we need to hit the streets, you're talking about Jackie's women. Who you talking about hitting the street? Let's be real. Let's don't do applause soundlights. Let's do something. What do we do about the church? Each church needs to do something. Hitting the streets might not necessarily be it. She got to work every day, she got a choir rehearsal, she got Bible study. She ain't gonna hit no streets, she ain't got no time. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_10 57:18

No, no, no, no. Let me push back on that gym, no no no no no. Listen, no, no, no, no, that's too easy. Look, there are black men in the churches. There are black men in the churches, and hold up, Doc. No, hold on, Doc. Let's be specific. You know what I mean? No, no, no. I'm not talking about you. No, I'm saying in black America on the planet Earth, in the hood, you take a look at the channel. Hold on, Doc, hold on, Doc. I'm saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because I'm saying that if we black preachers were to choose to set more examples where we connected hips with lips and were available, just visible. I'm not saying that we gotta rub shoulders with the uncouth and the unwashed. I'm simply saying that there is more that black men in

Who Actually Hits The Streets

SPEAKER_10 58:08

the church can do to be visible and available to that mother that ain't got that child. That's all I'm saying, doctor.

SPEAKER_14 58:16

But they ain't the ones in church. What do you think the black church needs to hit the street? We still got this nebula. What is the black church doing? Them brothers that made the babies, they ain't coming up to listen to you. They ain't coming to church. They come on the hitting it. They hitting it all right. What is it?

SPEAKER_10 58:40

What do you say? I'm gonna say it.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

That's what I mean when I say your theology affects your political stuff. Doctor, you're right in that. That was like a house.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:50

But what can we do to help make our kids say?

SPEAKER_07 1:06:30

Come in a hand, goddammit, family still standing, but you're still sitting on your hands, asking when will we become free? Someone come and rest.

Closing Music And Reflection

SPEAKER_07 1:08:16

We love down and down, so someone come and rescue me. Oh, someone come and sit in the street. Is burning between uptown and downtown. Someone come and rescue me. She said I'm wanted dead all out in my hometown. Someone come and say he be street.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:02

I'm gon' like water brinks right bein' drink this home and my wall out of me. And when that has hope be loses it's done. I'm gonna let that risky do what brisket down. Maybe it'll make me lose my mind. Or maybe it'll help me forget this time.

unknown 1:09:40

Or maybe it'll put my fist through the wall. Make me pick up the phone, give you a call, baby. Somewhere I know the beach.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Make the world stay, make the whole world space. Make them make me dance, make me cry. Well I don't know. But I know the mind. I'm gonna water and see it right away. I'm gonna drink this whole number all out we'll that's gone, we'll lose this button. I'm gonna let that risk it do what's it do? Maybe it'll buy this barn my ass upside down. Maybe it'll make me a fly on the wall, or stand me up ten feet tall. Maybe it'll take me to a better place and put a smile back on my face. Maybe it'll make me hate my soul. Fall in love somebody. I'll told my water and stick out. I'm gonna drink this all the bell out of me. I'm gonna let that witch be up with the middle, my big water. I'm gonna let that whiskey do a whiskey. Sometimes I sit here just because I better let that whiskey do one way.

SPEAKER_15 1:12:55

Over time, oh shit, play, so I can sit down here and waste my horse away. Right back home and tell my trouble. It's a damn shame. What the world's gotten to people like me, people like you, is how to just wake up and not be true, but it is. Oh yeah, living in the new live hoes, so rich man knows the rich man, all knows it all. Just wanna have control. Wanna know what you think, wanna know what you do, and then I don't think you know, I know that you do the dollar hate shit, and it's taxing all men, all the rich man, don't the rich man. I wish politicians lookin' out for miners, not just minors on the mountain somewhere. Or we got folks in the street, ain't got nothing to eat, and they all be milking welfare. And you're 300 pounds, bags are hot enough to pay, or your bags are full of drown, your men are putting themselves, six feet in the ground, cause all this damn country does is keep on kicking them down. Or it's a damn shame. What the world's got into people like me, people like you, if I could just wake up and not be true, but it is. Oh, it is live a man. Live and hold so rich men know for rich men, Lord knows they all just wanna have total control, wanna know what you think, wanna know what you do, and then I think you know, but I know that you do, cause you know or hang shit, and it's time to go in, knows a rich men, knows a rich man.